Evidence of meeting #11 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requester.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Are you giving Mr. Kenney the main points of the report, or are we going to discuss them at another time?
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
I don't want to get into a debate here. You're going to address questions through the chair, and members at this particular point in time can make statements and they can ask questions, and Mr. Kenney may or may not answer your question.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Mr. Chairman, I apologize. You caught me out, and I ask your forgiveness.
I am not very familiar with the committee's habits. I know we haven't had the opportunity to produce a lot of reports. I want to ensure that we establish the main points of this report at another time. Obviously, we won't be doing it before our guests, who have kindly agreed to be here. I will make my comments at that time.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
I don't want any debate here. The chair takes the position that each member has, in this particular case, five minutes, and they can ask questions, they can go on a rant--as long as it's a relevant rant--and that's it.
So I'm not going to allow a debate here between you and Mr. Kenney.
Conservative
Conservative
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
Actually, it's not. It's Madame Lavallée's, but you can come back.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Mr. Chairman, since I am subject to and obey your rules, I'll withhold my comments. I'll simply say that I'm not sure it's the media's fault in this particular case.
Conservative
Conservative
Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB
No, I made the statement precisely about our current study, and I believe it was entirely relevant. I did it before the senior officials and the media who are here today and who, I suppose, will soon lose interest in the subject.
I'd like go on the record saying that, in my view, the officials did not break the law.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
It appears we're finished.
I want to thank the four of you for making your presentation and for answering some very difficult questions. Thank you, gentlemen.
Ladies and gentlemen, we now have committee business. I've had it both ways, where we go into private session or where we've had it in public session. I'm going to suggest a public session unless someone suggests otherwise.
There are two items. One is what we will do next. Secondly, there is a motion by Madame Lavallée that I guess falls into the category of what we will do next.
I draw to the committee's attention that by November 10 this committee must have completed the estimates of the three commissions. Having sat here in a previous session and watched the three commissions being dealt with in one day, and having heard the former clerk, Mr. Marleau, make a statement that we don't spend enough time on estimates—and I think he's right—the chair is suggesting that this committee should spend a day on each commission.
We have those to deal with, and there may be more. We have the report to deal with, and we'll have to give our people time to prepare our report. There may be a possibility that we discuss the new funding formula in conjunction with the estimates. This committee spent a great deal of time on the proposed new funding formula. As I understand it, that hasn't taken effect yet, but we may want to hear from Treasury Board or someone with respect to their comments on that. And we have PIPEDA, the review of which we have to at least start prior to the end of the year, so that can wait as long as we at least start it before Christmas.
Ladies and gentlemen, because we are still on the topic of the orders of the day, I'm going to give the floor to Madame Lavallée in regard to whether we will proceed with further witnesses or whether we will tell the staff to commence preparing a report.
Madame Lavallée, you have a motion you have served us with. If you read the motion, you can then make some introductory comments with respect to that motion.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
The article on the front page of the Saturday Ottawa Citizen referred to a confidential computer at the Treasury Board Secretariat making it possible to circumvent access to information legislation. The article revealed that there was apparently a confidential computer system expressly designed to keep ministerial documents, including contracts, so as not to have to let them go or make them public in cases where they would be subject to an information request.
I distributed that article to you. You've no doubt read it, because it was very interesting. I prepared a motion for us to meet with Mr. Wouters, who is the Secretary of the Treasury Board. I apologize: he's identified in the motion as deputy minister, but he is indeed the Secretary of the Treasury Board. We could ask him exactly what's going on, if there is indeed an independent server at the Treasury Board. Perhaps that's not the case; perhaps this is a matter raised by the media, as Mr. Kenney would say.
Conservative
Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB
Mr. Chairman, first of all, I have a question. Is it Madame Lavallée's intention that this witness be called under the aegis of the current study that we're engaged in, or is it a separate matter?
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
I interpret it to be part of this process, but I could be mistaken.
Madame Lavallée, perhaps you could inform the chair whether this is a separate motion apart from the study that this committee is under today, or whether it's your intention that it be.... What is your intention?
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
The purpose was in fact to conduct a separate study, but I won't get sick or break out in a rash if we decide to include it in the study under way. I'd like us to meet with Mr. Wouters to determine what's at the origin of the Ottawa Citizen article.
Conservative
Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB
That answered my question.
On debate, then, I would confirm Madame Lavallée's prediction that I would not agree with the media report in this matter. The notion that there is a secret server for this information is about as big a secret as the existence of the Peace Tower.
As Mr. Peterson will know as a former minister, it's a well-established public practice that each government department has a separate server as an administrative tool. The opposition knows that under the Access to Information Act, documents within a minister's office are exempt from the act, and they always have been. The use of a separate server is merely an administrative convenience, because if we were to keep all department information on the server, it would be a lot more work for the ATIP coordinators to separate out documents from ministerial and departmental staff.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter where the information is stored, it's what affects whether it is accessible under the ATI Act or not. I would therefore suggest respectfully that this matter is not worth the committee's time, given that it's a request to study a matter that's a longstanding, open, and transparent practice. To that effect, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to table the great secret here.
I've brought copies in both languages. I've already made copies for all members. These are the Guidelines for Ministers' Offices. At page 55, Part 10, “Information Management”, the document states:
Ministers should maintain separate information systems for Cabinet documents, institutional records, ministerial records, and personal and political records.
That's indeed the information Ms. Lavallée is looking for.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
We'll just get these distributed, and then we'll have a chat.
Have you concluded, Mr. Kenney?
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
If it was an open secret, it was well kept. You'll agree with me that the Ottawa Citizen is a credible newspaper and that Tim Naumetz is no mean journalist. He's been covering Parliament Hill for longer than you and I have been here, Mr. Kenney.
The Bloc québécois did not know that existed, nor did Mr. Naumetz of the Ottawa Citizen. Since the Ottawa Citizen decided to put this on its front page on Saturday morning, I think it would be helpful to hear from Mr. Wouters in order to clarify the situation. Not only will we all know the truth and it will no longer be an open secret, but the public will know it as well. We'll know what this private server is used for and what it contains.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm not going to be supporting the motion. The issue that Madame Lavallée is bringing forward is that this is a secret item. Obviously it's not a secret. It's printed on Government of Canada paper. It has been around for many years. I understand that other ministers from other governments have used this server in their departments.
It's printed, it's public, there's no secret to it. I can understand that maybe the Bloc didn't know it existed. I didn't know it existed until I found out the information. I appreciate her bringing it forward, but we have a lot to do as a committee, particularly before we're due on these estimates. Spending billions of dollars or millions dollars of taxpayers money is a priority for this committee, and I think the wise thing to do is to say we have got the information, thank you very much. I would say the press may have gotten in slightly wrong on the weekend, and we should move on to the real work that this committee needs to be doing.
