Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

In terms of personal anecdotal reference points, ten years ago I was CEO of an NGO with a budget of about $4 million, and we had about ninety employees. I see here that you're planning to spend $16.5 million next year, plus another couple of million in costs received, without charge, for 143 employees. That's about $81,000 per employee. We're talking about $10 million in salaries and benefits for 124 staff in the current year, and that's $81,000.

I have a hard time understanding why that's necessary to handle a caseload of 1,600 files and to do some education. I just don't understand the empire-building that appears to be going on here in moving, from 2005 to 2007, from 80 to 143 employees.

[Jennifer Stoddart]

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could remind the honourable member that we have a mandate that is multifaceted. We don't just do investigations. Investigations are perhaps the one single most important line item, but we do audits and reviews. We evaluate privacy impact assessments for the various departments and organizations in the federal government. We do research. We do public education. We have a website now that has a million visits a year, which is up sharply from what it was a couple of years ago. We cooperate internationally because of the increasing acuity of the issues of Canadians' data flowing across borders and increasingly being beyond their control. We litigate cases before the Federal Court.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Madam Commissioner, I gather that all of those statutory functions existed eighteen months ago, when you were operating with 80 employees. Why do you need an additional 63 employees and an additional $7 million to do the same functions?

[Jennifer Stoddart]

Perhaps I could refer the honourable member to the beginning of the report on plans and priorities, where we put forth the case of the urgent need for increased funds in the face of the advances in privacy technology, in the face of the threats to Canadians because of increasingly privacy-invasive practices; because of the need to inform Canadians of their privacy rights, and because of the need to help the federal government develop privacy-respectful practices in dealing with citizens' information. All that is resumed here, and all that was put before the parliamentary panel last year in some detail.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

You're already a minute and a half over.

Committee members, as your chair—don't shoot the messenger—I would remind you that we have three people on the list for the third round. That would be approximately 15 minutes, which would take us to about 5:10.

There was some hope amongst committee members that we might be able to finish the review and, indeed, conclude the report upon which we have been working. If this committee decides that it wants to report anything specific on any of the estimates that we've heard, we have to do that today, because it has to be in by the 10th, or it's automatically deemed to have been reported back as accepted if we choose to do nothing.

I'm just reminding you of all that, given that we have only 35 minutes left. Right now, as far as I'm concerned, we can go until 5:30—put up your hand if you want to—but I'm just bringing to your attention what it was hoped that we might be able to accomplish.

So we have Mr. Peterson, Mr. Wallace, and Mr. Tilson.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Mr. Watson, you said the biggest offender in terms of complaints was the RCMP. Could you give me an example of what type of precise complaint there would be against the RCMP?

[Wayne Watson]

Well, it's not only the RCMP, but the other federal departments. The biggest complaint is the time it takes for them to respond within time limits for requests for access, to requests for—

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Requests for what, specifically?

[Wayne Watson]

If someone wanted from the RCMP all the personal information that their organization has on them, then according to the act, the RCMP have 30 days to provide this information.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

So if the person doesn't get it within 30 days, they complain to you. What do you do?

[Wayne Watson]

Normally we will contact the department and use as much influence as possible to get them to provide the information to the individual. Oftentimes we'll not only mediate it, we will put the necessary pressure on the department to—

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

How long does it take for one person to phone the RCMP and say it's been 30 or 60 or 70 days and they haven't responded?

[Wayne Watson]

Sometimes we have to do it five, seven, or ten times during the year, Mr. Chairman. It's simply a question of resourcing.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

For that one individual not getting the information? This means you need more power to discipline these agencies and make them abide by the law.

[Jennifer Stoddart]

May I answer?

Yes, honourable member, and this is what we set out in the report this committee asked us to draw up on the reforms of the Privacy Act.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

In terms of the “me first” sanctions?

[Jennifer Stoddart]

Yes. I don't think many of the government departments listen to us as they should, because we basically can't go anywhere with any sanctions.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I've forgotten your report. Did you tell us the type of sanctions that you wanted?

[Jennifer Stoddart]

We suggested that we should look at the sanctions in PIPEDA, the private sector commercial law. Citizens should be able to go to court, and if they don't have the satisfaction that they want from the federal government—

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Why couldn't you go to court on their behalf?

[Jennifer Stoddart]

We could go to court on their behalf, yes. Either one works, according to the model that is in PIPEDA. PIPEDA allows for both.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

If you could get the attention of these offending bodies more quickly, you would need less employees.

[Jennifer Stoddart]

Perhaps, yes.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Colleagues, there's an onus on us to get this bloody law amended quickly so that the Privacy Commissioner is listened to.

[Jennifer Stoddart]

If it were self-enforcing a lot more, we wouldn't have 1,200 complaints from people.