Evidence of meeting #21 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
Mr. Chair, could I respond to that?
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
I think there's one other element here, and it's a feeling that disclosing the name could do so much harm to a company. Really, with a law, they're still seeking guidance, and the Privacy Commissioner is giving guidance as to what it means. Most companies, as you know, try very hard to follow what the Privacy Commissioner says. Disclosing publicly could be hugely economically damaging. The commissioner usually gives people a chance to correct what they are doing before taking that step. There's a balance between the relative harm and how serious the breach was.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses.
In the last Parliament, we came very close to getting the “do not call” list legislation. Did it pass and get implemented? It was a private member's bill that was widely received.
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
The government adopted a version of Ms. Torsney's bill, and it hasn't been implemented yet. It's before the CRTC for implementation.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
That's the question I was going to follow up with. So that is the status of the list?
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
Yes. However, sir--if I may--we've had our own since 1989. We have 650,000 numbers on it. It's a free consumer service, and our members must use it as a condition of membership. It's free, and it's on our website, if you want to tell your constituents about it.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Okay. People do like the idea of being on it. I know that.
Along the same lines, I'm interested in the sort of direct market side of things. The renting of lists is covered in your code of ethics, as item M1.1. How common and frequent is that kind of sharing of lists? Is that a regular routine practice of a lot of your members?
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
Yes, it is. Within the not-for-profit charitable sector, it's more a matter of exchanging and bartering. Within the commercial sector, it's a revenue stream to rent out your lists, obviously with the consent of the individuals on that list.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
That's what I was going to get at. You mean everybody has to have, at some point in time, signed some kind of a waiver to allow their name to be put on a list that may be shared with someone else?
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
No, that's not the way it works. The act makes a distinction between information that a reasonable person would consider to be sensitive and information a reasonable person would consider to be innocuous, and there are different levels of consent. Again, this is a huge part of the information-based economy, and so the act recognizes that for information, perhaps in the case of a subscription to a general interest magazine, you can use an opt-out consent. We require that if you're going to use an opt-out consent, it be easy to see, easy to understand, and easy to execute, and not buried in paragraph 83 of a 200-paragraph privacy notice. The next level of information is what a reasonable person would consider to be sensitive. There's the obvious: health information and financial information. Even certain magazine subscriptions or video rentals might be sensitive, so then you have to go to the higher level of consent, and obtain express consent from the individual.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
That's very helpful. That's exactly the information I wanted.
Have you ever heard of a list being put together and sold or rented along ethnic lines or religious lines?
4:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
No, not specifically, but I would not be surprised if certain subscription lists are available to identify members of a certain ethnic community who may have an interest in a certain product or service.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I found this book very helpful. In employing your internal “do not call” list, you go through itemized limitations that I suppose your members themselves have to stipulate, to conduct themselves according to this set of rules. One of the things you've mentioned is sequential dialing; marketers must not engage in sequential dialing.
How do you police something like that? I certainly have been told that's a frequent and common practice amongst telemarketers--maybe they're not members of your association, but telemarketers generally.
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
It's one of the reasons that led to our support for the “do not call” list. Unfortunately, the telemarketing community has not comprehensively self-regulated. Those who conduct it ethically and according to the rules are paying a price now for those who have not.
It is my understanding that sequential dialing is not frequently used, at least certainly not on major national campaigns. I can't speak for small local businesses, but it's inappropriate to take a series of numbers and start sequential dialing. You never know when you're going to hit the intensive care ward of a hospital, amongst other things.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
It's very popular in my business, in politics. This is the kind of thing that is coming up in election campaigns more and more frequently. We're consumers of telemarketing business too. It seems to me some parties are using that.
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
I quite enjoyed receiving the message from my member of Parliament for Willowdale in the last election campaign.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Was it on a computerized...? It might have been Jim's voice.
Did you dial all those personally, Jim?
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
You actually wore it out. It's remarkable.
I'd be more comfortable, I suppose, if.... What in PIPEDA affects the ability to develop, trade, or sell lists? What regulation is there to how you conduct yourselves other than your very admirable code of ethical conduct?
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Marketing Association
Fortunately we had a code of ethics prior to PIPEDA that reflected those principles, which our members followed, so we were not terrible fussed by the legislation; we didn't have to change very much. But the fundamental of it, of course, is that you need consent to acquire personal information, you need consent to use it, you need consent to disclose it, and it must be limited to the purposes you've identified. That's the basic framework of PIPEDA. It provides considerable restrictions in the marketplace on the use of personal information.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
But that level of consent is graduated, based on the degree of information you're talking about.
