Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 20th, 2007

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

The courts have ruled that it's not protected information under the charter. What you're arguing against is the idea that they're saying it's normal data available to other people through other venues and everything else. It's up to somebody else as to how you address PIPEDA in terms of how they disseminate the dates of birth.

Obviously, a gentleman earlier talked about identity theft and stuff like that, and yes, there are issues around that. For what we ask for through PIPEDA, though, the court has ruled that it does not violate the charter. It's admissible evidence. It's admissible information. It goes right down to what you say, including tombstone data and their dates of birth.

I'll leave you with these three decisions if you want, from the previous—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It would be helpful if they could be tabled for circulation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

Could you leave those with the clerk, please?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

My last point on this is simply that the Office of the Privacy Commissioner agrees. We have a letter from her, as of Monday of this week, accepting our complaint regarding the distribution of dates of birth on the permanent voters list. She is agreeing that it is a serious concern. I just wanted your views on it, and I thank you for that.

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

Just to extend on your point, we've noticed under the firearms registry that even by giving three letters of a postal code, people can zero in on where firearms are, and then we see heightened activity around break-and-enters into various homes.

So we're not the only analysts in the world. Criminals and organized criminals out there now have their own analysts. It's up to you to decide whether or not they can use those pieces of information to not only get your date of birth, but information on whether you own a gun or whatever else.

We share similar concerns, because we're about prevention. If we can prevent something, then we're all for it, especially if it's an act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

Thank you.

We have five minutes. We'll give two and a half minutes to Monsieur Vincent and two and a half minutes to Mr. Stanton, and then we adjourn.

Monsieur Vincent.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to finish the story that I started earlier because it's a bit disturbing. I'm still afraid because identity theft is the most common thing these days. It's the most widespread type of fraud for which there are the fewest convictions, because it's hard to trace a person or someone who has used the name of another person. Stealing money is so easy and so quick! You know that all the people who want to break the law are on the look-out for all the new acts and everything that happens in the courts so they can be more up-to-date than the police.

Since, from one day to the next, these people could know that section 7 of the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act has been amended, giving police officers the opportunity to access all information allowed by occupation, aren't you afraid that someone may steal your identity and use it to obtain others in order to commit theft or something else? Haven't you thought that that kind of thing could happen?

[Supt Art Crockett]

Sir, is your question whether or not we feel there would be a threat if information were given to police, that it would be stolen from us? Do you feel that we will not secure the evidence?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

No, imagine that I use your name tomorrow, Mr. Crockett, that I take your business card and go to the corner store and tell them that I'm conducting an investigation — my letter confirms it — and I ask them to give me personal information on a person, his social insurance number and so on. Is that possible?

[Bruce Rogerson]

Every person has the right to phone the police station and check.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Suppose I have your business card and a letter from the RCMP confirming that I'm conducting an investigation. I present it to the person opposite me and I tell him that it isn't necessary to call. I'm there and I'm requesting personal information on someone. Does section 7 of the act, which gives me the power to ask you for that information, make that possible?

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

In your view, it's—

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Your speaking in English is not a problem.

[Bruce Rogerson]

No, everybody has the right to give us the information, but it's not mandatory.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You're not answering my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

Mr. Vincent, you got an answer. That's your time.

Certainly, if somebody impersonates a police officer, you can't expect the dépanneur not to answer the question, obviously.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wonder if I could use this occasion with our esteemed panel here today to say that we have a motion in front of the House right now concerning the Anti-terrorism Act. I wonder if you'd have any thoughts on what Parliament should consider in respect to the Anti-terrorism Act--in fact, the two considerations that we're considering renewing for a period of three years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

Mr. Stanton, that's a good question, but how's that relevant to PIPEDA?

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I thought I'd try, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

It's a good try, but I really don't think it's relevant to PIPEDA.

Officers, thank you very much for your appearance today. We do appreciate it. I'm surprised we went the full time, but I guess when the RCMP is here there's room for all kinds of questions on all kinds of things, as you heard. So many thanks again for your evidence. Please be sure to give us the three cases that you mentioned, and the specific wording of the amendments that you would like.

I adjourn the meeting until Thursday, when we will have the Privacy Commissioner before us, and hopefully we'll have some very pointed questions for her about some of the recommendations that have been made to us.

Thank you.