Evidence of meeting #45 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was problem.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'll support that, as long as the word “approximately”—If somebody is in the middle of a speech or in the middle of a question at 10:30, I don't think we have to end right at 10:30, but as long as we finish up around that time and give some time to Madam Lavallée's request, I think we can handle that.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
There seems to be a general consensus.
Commissioner, your presentation, I guess, will end at 10:30, but thank you.
Madame Lavallée, you still have a bit of time left.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Indeed, I have a lot of questions to ask, and, since I have stolen my own time, in a way, I will speak quickly, to the interpreters' great despair.
You said in your presentation that part of the problem of identity theft, and of the solution to that problem, falls under provincial jurisdiction. I'm particularly interested in that. Can you sort that out? What concerns the provinces and what concerns the federal government?
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I'll ask our lawyer to explain which part of the problem of identity theft might fall under provincial jurisdiction.
Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Good morning.
It is up to the provinces to enforce the act, the Criminal Code. So if an offence is committed under the Criminal Code, it is up to the provinces to decide whether or not they will prosecute someone for identity theft, fraud, or petty theft. The remarks I made earlier on the applications of the Criminal Code concerned that.
In addition, if personal information is like property, it's the same situation. Normally, property is a provincial jurisdiction, so it is up to the provinces to decide what they want to do.
That is why the Commissioner said that it was really a national, even international program that concerns the provinces, the federal government and our international partners.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Indeed, Ms. Campbell, earlier you said that one of the problems was that identity theft was not recognized as such in the Criminal Code. Do you believe that including it in the Criminal Code would be a solution?
Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I agree with the Commissioner, that is to say that the sections of the Criminal Code are reserved for the most extreme cases. First, it would be important to educate the public on the value of their personal information. Then there are regulations. Our office is already doing a lot of things to protect personal information. There are a lot of civil measures. That's probably where you will find the greatest force, the most opportunities for making changes. If someone isn't responsible for the personal information in his or her possession and that has tax consequences, that organization or that person may pay more attention in future. In the Criminal Code, the criminal measures are really for the most extreme cases.
That said, we think that the current sections are really obsolete and do not apply to a situation in which someone collects personal information for criminal purposes. Yes, there are deficiencies.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
When you say that the present measures are obsolete, do you mean that they are old, that they no longer correspond to the kinds of thefts that are committed today?
Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Yes, they are old. The sections dealing with fraud and theft concern property, that is to say your money, your house, your car. Personal information as such doesn't have a recognized value.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
If personal information doesn't have any value, are there nevertheless any prosecutions?
Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Yes, there are prosecutions, but only at the time of use. So, if someone, for example, makes a list of the personal information of all the members of the committee, we can do nothing. If he doesn't use that information, we can do nothing.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
He can do what he wants if he doesn't use it or if we can't prove that he uses it.
Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
That's it.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
You also said a little earlier that this was a provincial, federal and international problem. Can you explain to me why it's an international problem?
Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
When these are people from the organized crime community—my colleagues who have worked at the RCMP could talk about this at greater length—it's really an international problem, that is to say that the information is gathered in Canada, but it can be used elsewhere, for immigration purposes or other criminal purposes.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
You also said that we can prosecute the users of this information, but not those who collect it without using it. Does that mean that a young person who works at a convenience store, for example, or who copies credit cards or bank cards at the request of a person involved in organized crime who pays him $150 for each copy couldn't be prosecuted?
Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Precisely.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Are you telling me that it's an open bar for all the people who work at a convenience store and who copy credit cards?
Senior Legal Counsel, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Unless you have a direct witness or direct evidence that organized crime is involved, that the young people are working together, which is usually very hard to prove.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
We have to move on, Madame Lavallée. I'm sorry.
Mr. Martin.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Chair.
I'm also interested in the idea. I believe the recommendation of the finance committee was to urge the Minister of Justice to include identity theft as a specific criminal offence.
It has always struck me as odd that it's a specific criminal offence to steal a cow in this country, but it's not a specific offence to steal a car or an identity. The argument is that if you listed everything there would be a huge volume of all the things that it's against the law to steal.
I sense there is interest in listing identify theft because it gives a judge more latitude in sentencing. Otherwise, how do you quantify how serious the identity theft is if it's not identified? If fact, when there's no actual injury it's still a crime to steal someone's identity, even if it never does result in financial loss to them.
I understand your point, but do you not agree that if it were included in the Criminal Code it would make it easier to enforce and would send the message to the community at large that we take this very seriously?
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Absolutely. In the time I've been Privacy Commissioner I have repeatedly inquired about the possibility of amending the Criminal Code. I gather there's some work being done by the Department of Justice, but we have not yet seen it finalized. I hope that Justice will move on this.
Your colleague the honourable Mr. Rajotte of Edmonton Southwest introduced a private member's bill to amend the Criminal Code to cover identity theft. This has now passed second reading and has been sent back to the House. I have supported it, and people from my office have tried to give Mr. Rajotte any advice he has needed.
This is an urgent problem and we see a lamentable slowness in responding to it.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
You mentioned that the U.K. commissioner's report is shocking. Can you give us a brief example of some of the things that pop out of that report?
Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Yes. In the U.K. it seems there is a multi-million-pound industry in illicitly obtaining personal information—I think the two main actors are the media and lawyers—to either aid their clients' side of affairs or expose public people in compromising situations.
I wonder if Carman Baggaley has read about this more recently than I have.
Carman, are there any other highlights?
Carman Baggaley Senior Strategic Policy Analyst, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
As the commissioner suggested, I think partly it's fed by the media in the U.K., but there are many examples of people in either telephone companies or financial institutions being paid to disclose information that is then sent in to the media to highlight the social life or the private life of celebrities, and it's a very lucrative trade. There are companies for which this seems to be the main line of business—obtaining this information—which then feeds into various uses.