Mr. Chairman, let me say I recognize the pattern of denial that Mr. Van Kesteren was trying to establish here. He was going for the rogue bureaucrat theory that the Liberals used to try in the sponsorship scandal, saying, isn't it possible that the ATIP coordinator was just a little bit over-zealous or used an abundance of caution? However, the testimony we've heard is that these expert witnesses, at least one of them, believe there was political interference, which is a much different thing.
Mr. Esau—