Evidence of meeting #55 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Leonard Edwards  Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Gwyn Kutz  Director, Human Rights, Gender Equality, Health and Population Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Jennifer Nixon  ATIP Team Leader, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Francine Archambault  Senior ATIP Analyst, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Gary Switzer  ATIP Consultant, Access to Information and Privacy Protection Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Good morning, everyone.

I call meeting 55 to order. We are continuing our study of “Afghanistan 2006: Good Governance, Democratic Development and Human Rights”.

We have with us this morning the deputy minister, Mr. Leonard J. Edwards.

Before I call upon him, when I walked in I received a copy of a letter from the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I don't know if you've seen it. I find it curious, but I'm going to pass it on.

Dear Mr. Wappel:

I am writing with respect to the scheduled appearance by officials of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada (DFAIT), including Mr. Leonard J. Edwards, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, before the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics on June 19, 2007.

I understand that Mr. Edwards and the DFAIT officials accompanying him will answer the questions put to them by members of the Committee to the best of their abilities and explain the policies and procedures of the Canadian government in the carrying out of their responsibilities, as these pertain to the Committee's study of the access to information requests for DFAIT's internal report entitled Afghanistan 2006: Good Governance, Democratic Development and Human Rights.

I'd like committee members to listen carefully to this paragraph:

I am sure that as Chair of the Committee, you will see to it that the witnesses are treated with due courtesy and respect as public servants and citizens of Canada. I was personally distressed by the reports conveyed to me of the treatment accorded to DFAIT officials who appeared before the Committee on May 29, 2007, by a few members of the Committee, and would hope that such conduct would not be repeated.

I wish to thank you in advance for your cooperation in this respect,

Sincerely,

Peter G. MacKay

I simply bring that to your attention, as it was brought to my attention.

Before I recognize Mr. Martin, I will remind committee members that last week, in camera, we discussed this issue of the questioning of witnesses.

Mr. Martin.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I'd like to point out that we don't need a dressing-down by the minister to remind us to do our jobs with professionalism and courtesy. Personally, I don't like the tone or the content of this letter.

If you see fit, I would like to recommend that you draft a letter to him on behalf of the committee recommending that he talk to some of his officials about coming to a parliamentary committee—when they're summoned to a committee—with the documentation we're obviously going to need. We don't want to go through another zoo story like we did when his ATIP coordinator showed up without even a hint of any of the paperwork that might have been needed for a two-hour interview by this committee.

So if anybody should be offended, it should be members of this committee, by the way we were treated by officials from DFAIT under the auspices of that minister.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

I'll take that under advisement. We'll see how the meeting goes today. That might be an idea if we don't get very far. Perhaps the minister would like to attend and observe himself. Of course, there's nothing preventing him from doing that now.

In any event, let's not waste a lot of time. We have the deputy minister here. He has other things to do.

Mr. Leonard J. Edwards, deputy minister, good morning, sir. Do you have an opening statement?

9:05 a.m.

Leonard Edwards Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

I do, Mr. Chairman.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Please go ahead.

9:05 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Leonard Edwards

Mr. Chairman, good morning. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

I am appearing before you today on your study of the access to information requests for the department's internal report entitled “Afghanistan 2006: Good Governance, Democratic Development and Human Rights”.

I am accompanied by a number of officials from the department who were more directly involved in the subject of your study. They will be meeting with the committee at a later stage this morning to provide you with more details.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs is responsible and accountable to Parliament for all aspects of the department. As deputy minister, I have delegated responsibility for public servants in the department and I am accountable to the minister for their work.

The minister has asked that my officials and I cooperate fully in providing the factual information to the committee that you are requesting and in answering your questions fully and frankly, consistent with our responsibilities not to disclose confidential information and guided by the Access to Information Act, the Privacy Act, and our oath as public servants.

I am here to set the general context for the department's work in the areas of human rights and Access to Information, and, as befits a deputy minister, to offer the departmental officials also appearing today my support for the work they are doing in the public service of Canada and to demonstrate my full confidence in their ability to carry out their responsibilities.

I would like to stress at the outset, Mr. Chairman, that I have the highest respect for the committees of Parliament and the work they do, including this committee. As a public servant and a deputy minister for many years, I have had many opportunities to appear before parliamentary committees and to work closely with parliamentarians inside and outside the House, and I have always valued the principles of openness, transparency, and cooperation that have characterized these relations and the relations generally between the public service and Parliament.

With respect to the department's work in the area of human rights, let me say a few words about the human rights reports that have been the object of so much attention of late, both in the media and in this and other committees of the House. Like many other countries with a strong tradition of promoting human rights, Canada has, through its Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, developed a practice of preparing various annual human rights reports on specific countries. These reports are internal working documents of the department that are used in the preparation, as needed, of policy advice to the minister on specific human rights issues or on Canada's relations with individual countries or in developing the instructions for Canadian delegations to various international fora, such as the Third Committee of the United Nations or the Human Rights Council, particularly before voting on resolutions.

The reports themselves are prepared by the staff at the Canadian mission in those countries for which a human rights report has been requested by headquarters. They are the assessment of that mission. They are expected to be full and frank in their content and, reporting as clearly as possible the observations of these staff members on information gleaned from various sources, they serve the government in the formulation of policy. They are prepared annually, normally towards the end of the calendar year, and forwarded to Ottawa early in the following year.

Last year, the department requested 111 such country-specific reports. Unlike some countries, Canada does not prepare a single global report, nor, given the use to which these reports are put in providing policy advice and instructions to Canadian delegations, are they intended for public release. Ms. Kutz can provide you with more detail on these reports and their use later.

With respect to the Access to Information Act, I am the senior delegated authority in the department, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Thomsen and Ms. Sabourin, whom you met with on May 29, are also delegated authorities under the act, and Ms. Sabourin, as you are aware from her testimony, is the ATIP coordinator for the department.

The department handles a very heavy load of access to information and privacy requests, as well as a growing volume of access consultation requests from other government departments and agencies. Last year the department received a total of 2,263 requests, of which 648 were requests under the Access to Information Act; 202 requests under the Privacy Act; 766 requests for consultation under both acts; and 464 privacy requests from investigative bodies, principally police forces conducting criminal investigations. All told, a total of 173,635 pages were processed by the department's access to information and privacy protection division in 2006.

I give you those statistics just as context to the discussion we're going to have.

The volume of access to information requests has increased 10% annually on average over the past five years, but in this past fiscal year there was a significant 31% increase. In addition, the files are becoming, not surprisingly in an environment of information technology, increasingly voluminous and complex. The requirement for trained ATIP personnel is growing commensurately in the labour market as is, at the same time, the shortage of qualified and interested personnel.

The department processes requests under the Access to Information Act under a process that Ms. Thomsen described in her remarks on May 29 and that I will not repeat here. I would like to emphasize two points, however.

First, recommendations as to redactions to be made in any text are the initial and primary responsibility of the office of principal interest. The ATIP analyst is responsible for exercising a challenge function, when necessary, and for identifying the sections of the act that may be used in claiming an exemption or an exclusion. So you have the two points in the department that deal with it: the office of principal interest that looks at the text initially, and then the ATIP analysis that exercises a challenge function on the suggested redactions and provides the sections of the act under which such exemptions can be justified.

The processes in place at the department are in keeping with those used in other government departments and agencies and in keeping with the policies and guidelines developed by the Treasury Board, which has the general responsibility for overseeing the government's implementation of the provisions of the act, and with that, of course, you are very familiar. With respect to section 15 of the act, which has been the subject of much discussion in this committee, under section 15 the department can exempt from disclosure information that would impair Canada's ability to effectively conduct international relations now and in the future.

Secondly, I can assure members of the committee that the procedures followed by my department do not allow for any political engagement in the redaction of documents, and I can state categorically that in my many years as a public servant, which span the full period since the act was adopted in 1983, I have never seen evidence of inappropriate ministerial involvement in the release of information, nor has any such involvement been brought to my attention.

In conclusion, I would just like to say a few words about the four specific access requests which the committee is studying. I will leave the discussion of their specific involvement in these files to Ms. Nixon, Ms. Archambault, and Mr. Switzer respectively.

I would simply wish to state the following. As you are aware, one of these requests from Professor Attaran has been the object of two formal complaints to the Information Commissioner. We have now received a copy of the Information Commissioner's response to one of the complaints filed by Professor Attaran. In his letter to the professor, copies of which I can provide to the committee today in both official languages, Mr. Marleau finds that the department was late in responding to the professor's request. This is clear. In her testimony before this committee, Ms. Sabourin acknowledged this tardiness and apologized to the committee publicly for it, as she had earlier apologized to Professor Attaran in a letter.

Mr. Marleau concludes his letter to the professor with the following statement:

DFAIT responded to your request on April 23, 2007, resolving the delay complaint. It is my view that DFAIT's general handling of your request was done neither maliciously nor intentionally to prevent you from obtaining access to the records you requested. That said, I will record your complaint as resolved. In your representations to my investigator, you allege that DFAIT concealed records, an obstruction of a right of access under paragraph 67.1.(1)(c) of the Act. Our investigation determined that there was no evidence to support that allegation against DFAIT with respect to your particular request.

Mr. Chairman, those are my comments, my opening statement. I understand that later this morning other members of my department will be appearing before the committee. So I will conclude at this point. Thank you very much.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you, sir.

Before I call on committee members, yes, we would ask you to table the documentation that you mentioned in the last two paragraphs of your remarks, namely Mr. Marleau's correspondence with you. We would appreciate that. That would be helpful.

Speaking of tabling documents, on Friday, June 15, I read an article in the Globe and Mail headlined, “Human rights not on radar of senior Tories, MacKay says”. I think that's an inflammatory headline. However, the point is that both the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Defence, according to the newspaper, tabled written responses in the House of Commons on Thursday. One presumes that if they were tabled in the House of Commons, they were tabled in both official languages. I called my clerk and asked him to obtain copies of those documents for the members of the committee for today's meeting. I don't have them. I would appreciate it if, while you're giving your evidence, perhaps you could have one of your officials see if they could obtain copies of the reports that were tabled by the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Defence in this regard.

Yes, Mr. Tilson.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

The Globe and Mail printed a retraction today on page 2 of that story.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

About what? About the fact that—

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

It's about just what you're talking about.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

That the minister did not—

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I'm just saying, Mr. Chairman, before we get going on this issue that you should look at that retraction. Otherwise, we're going to get off on a red herring that has nothing to do with trying to improve a system with the deputy minister. I'm interested in hearing what facts he has to give us to improve the system, and this has nothing to do with anything.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Mr. Tilson, my question was whether the minister's office could obtain copies of the reports that were filed with Parliament. I'm not going anywhere else.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I'm just saying that before we go down that path—

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Mr. Tilson, are you saying that the retraction by the Globe and Mail was that the minister did not table responses?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I'm simply saying that before you make this an issue, you should look at that retraction.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I'm not making it an issue. I'm asking the minister—

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

You're doing a pretty good job at it, Mr. Chairman.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I'm asking the minister for copies of those reports. It's pretty simple: either there are or there aren't.

Now someone just whispered in my ear that they apparently were faxed to the office, and it appears as if we haven't had them. I thought it might be of some interest to the committee to read what the minister said in the House of Commons. I wouldn't quote the Globe and Mail if my life depended on it. I'm asking about reports that were tabled in the House of Commons—not what the Globe and Mail says, but whether reports were tabled, and if so, whether we can get them.

I'll leave it at that. The deputy minister will do the best he can, but obviously since they refer specifically to what we're talking about, it would be helpful if we had them.

Having said that, Deputy Minister, the reason you're there and you don't have your officials with you--and I want everybody to understand this, including the officials who are there—is that in your letter to me responding to the committee's request to hear certain people, and obviously, that request by the committee to hear certain people was declined by the department, you said, and I quote:

After careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that if the Committee wishes to hear from other officials of DFAIT, I would be best placed to appear. The officials whom you have asked to appear before you do not have delegated authority under the Act and are therefore not well placed to provide the Committee with insights into the administration of the Access to Information Act by DFAIT.

That's why you are here--because you said you were the person whom we should ask the questions of. That's why I've asked you to be here, and I guess the committee will test your statement as to whether or not you are in fact the person we want to hear from.

I should advise everybody that there is no guarantee that the committee will want to hear from anyone else, depending on what your answers are. However, given the way this thing has transpired, the committee had no choice but to summon the witnesses and have them available should it transpire that the committee is of the view that your answers are not sufficient.

But I don't want people to think there is an automatic presumption at this point, notwithstanding what's on the agenda, that we will hear from people. If we do hear from people, I don't want there to be an automatic presumption that some or all of that evidence will be in public.

Okay, we'll call the first round, which is for seven minutes. We'll go first with Mr. Dhaliwal suivi par Madame Lavallée.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome, Mr. Edwards.

Last week your department provided us at last with the timeline for when the requests were received and when they were actually responded to. Why was Ms. Sabourin not given this before she appeared?

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Leonard Edwards

Thank you.

I have to say I'm not familiar with the precise timelines that were involved in all of this, but when I sent my letter to the committee last week, I included these documents, and they took some time to put together. As I recall, in your testimony on the 29th, you specifically asked for those documents, and that is the reason they are now available to you.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Further to the chair's comments, in your letter you stated that you alone would be qualified to answer the questions as to the authorization to black out sections of the report. Are you aware that Ms. Sabourin directly contradicted you, insisting she made this decision herself?

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Leonard Edwards

When I say that I am the delegated authority for the exercise of discretion under the ATIP, that is simply the formal delegation that goes with the deputy minister and down through Ms. Thomsen and Ms. Sabourin. She has the delegated authority to make those judgments. That's what she does.

The wording of my letter had more to do with the other officials being asked to appear who do not have those delegated authorities. I was not only trying to protect them, because they don't have the delegated authorities, but I also wanted to ensure that you had someone here with delegated authority to best conduct your business.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

In other words, you are saying that Ms. Sabourin had the dedicated authority to appear here?

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade