Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 5th, 2008

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

When you say in the afterword in Kaplan's book that your staff would pore over receipts and documents and expense accounts to see what was part of the expenses of office, was that for repayment by the party or for repayment by the Prime Minister's Office budget?

[Norman Spector]

No, this was in relation to this first set of documents. This was the reimbursement for expenses incurred as party leader. The way the system worked was that we had a staff member—in my time, actually, a gentleman who was seconded from the external affairs department—an official, a public servant, poring over this, to look at the expenses that were or could legitimately be considered to be expenses that Mr. Mulroney was incurring as party leader. Those expenses had been submitted by Mrs. Mulroney. He would approve some and not approve others, and when we had done the final reconciliation we then claimed funds from the PC Canada Fund.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Madame Lavallée, s'il vous plaît.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Spector.

If I understand correctly, you would tend to agree with François Martin, who said that cash seemed to fall from the sky at 24 Sussex Drive. There was a culture of cash at the residence.

Why were the cheques made out to you? Why were they not made out to Mrs. Mulroney or to Mr. Mulroney?

[Norman Spector]

That is a very good question. I cannot answer it. Today, I might ask some questions. I would like to make two points. First, let us talk about my first meeting with Prime Minister Mulroney. When he offered me the position, he told me how the system worked. He told me that all my predecessors had performed this duty and that this would be one of my duties as chief of staff.

Second, I found this quite a normal practice, because I had heard about similar arrangements elsewhere. I knew from reading the newspapers that when Mr. Davis was the Premier of Ontario, there was a similar system in place. Before I came to Ottawa, I was a deputy minister during Mr. Bennett's time as Premier of British Columbia, and he too received a supplement from his political party. Consequently, this did not seem too strange to me.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Did Mr. Bennett receive a cheque issued directly by his party?

[Norman Spector]

I don't know. I was not involved in this practice in British Columbia. I was only a deputy minister. He had a principal secretary who looked after the more political duties.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I apologize for interrupting, but I have very little time.

When you received your cheques, did you have to provide invoices, receipts or anything?

[Norman Spector]

As I said in answering one of Mr. Thibault's questions, the invoices were submitted by Mrs. Mulroney, and someone on my team reviewed them to determine which were party expenses and which were personal expenses.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Were the expenses you saw mainly personal expenses for Mr. or Mrs. Mulroney, or did you see some of other types?

[Norman Spector]

Frankly, I did not look at them. I trusted this person on my team. He was a public servant from the Department of Foreign Affairs. I was sure that he was doing his job properly.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

At the time, did you not wonder why the money was not being given directly to Mr. Mulroney?

[Norman Spector]

I did not ask the question.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You did not ask the question. An intelligent person like yourself did not wonder...

[Norman Spector]

Even an intelligent person like myself did not ask the question.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

That is surprising.

[Norman Spector]

It is true that it is quite striking.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

But the money was mainly to top up Brian Mulroney's salary. When he worked for Iron Ore, he was earning $400,000, but as Prime Minister, he earned only $150,000.

[Norman Spector]

I was not involved in the meeting during which Mr. Mulroney signed this arrangement with the party. I do not know when it was held, why or how. All I know is that this arrangement was in place.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You were quoted in an article in La Presse on November 14. You said that the Mulroney-Schreiber affair “could prove to be one of the worst scandals in Canadian history”. Did you in fact say that?

[Norman Spector]

Yes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Do you really think that the behaviour of the Conservatives, during the time you held your position, between 1990 and 1992, was worse than what happened during the sponsorship scandal?

[Norman Spector]

I don't know. That is why I am calling on you to continue your work. We do not know where the $10 million ended up. So, it is possible...

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Where do you think the $10 million ended up?

[Norman Spector]

I don't know. Frankly, I do not rule out the possibility that Mr. Schreiber kept the $10 million for himself. I do not know, but I want to know. I think Canadians want to know what happened to the $10 million.