Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 5th, 2008

[Norman Spector]

Well, most of you, if not all of you, know the little arrangement upstairs, the Prime Minister's corner office opposite the cabinet room. On one side of him you'll find the secretary—I think it is probably the same—and on the other side there's a little office where I as chief of staff used to work. I had my main office at Langevin, but I would work in that office. Particularly, if I were going up to the Hill to see the Prime Minister after question period, I would be up there and working in the office.

I would see Mr. Doucet waiting outside for the end of question period, and he would then bring in someone who wasn't on our schedule. They didn't look like Girl Guides going in to get their photos taken with the Prime Minister; they were wearing suits.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Spector, do you have a copy—and are you willing to table it—of the sworn statement you gave to the RCMP in 1995 about the Bear Head project?

[Norman Spector]

To the RCMP in 1995? Yes, I have a copy with me. I'm sure you have a copy, but if you don't, I'd be pleased to give you a copy of it.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Could you please table that, sir?

[Norman Spector]

Absolutely.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you.

Was it Lowell Murray who first informed you that Hugh Segal took on the Bear Head project and that it was kept alive after you left the PMO? Can you tell us how this came up?

[Norman Spector]

Yes. I was out of the country, and when I came back—I think it was probably in The Globe and Mail, because it has the most comprehensive coverage in the country—I saw this article saying that Mr. Lalonde and Mr. MacKay had posted bond for Mr. Schreiber. So it must have been around 1997 or 1998.

I e-mailed Lowell Murray. I had worked very closely with Lowell Murray. He was the Minister of State for Federal-Provincial Relations during the period when we did Meech Lake, so I had worked with Lowell Murray and I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. I e-mailed him and said, “What gives? I thought that project was dead.” He said, “Oh, no, no.” I'm almost imitating Lowell Murray; those of you who know him can hear him. “Oh, no, no, no. It kept coming back.” He said even Hughie had dealt with it.

When I say Hughie had dealt with it, I'm not suggesting any impropriety on Mr. Segal's part. My understanding is that it did come back and that Mr. Segal gave it the back of his hand too. That was when Mr. Corbeil.... But that was before Karlheinz Schreiber went to do his courtesy call at Harrington Lake at the end of the Mulroney period, so it wasn't even dead after Mr. Segal disposed of it.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

You have noted that Schreiber has considered suing the government for not following through on the 1988 understanding in principle. When did Mr. Schreiber raise this to you and you first learn about this?

[Norman Spector]

He never raised that with me. He was not quite that aggressive. When I dealt with him—and what offended me most about dealing with him was that he was basically engaged in a process of character assassination of public servants—he was alleging that his difficulties with this project were as a result of certain officials being in the pockets of General Motors, who were the supplier of LAVs to the Canadian military.

These people he was talking about were my colleagues. I came out of that community and I knew them, and I knew they weren't in anybody's pocket.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hiebert, please.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Spector, you've told us about the system of cash being used at 24 Sussex. I'm wondering if you could explain to us what relevance you think that has to our study.

[Norman Spector]

I would ask you to ask yourselves that. You're the ones who have invited an ex-chef to appear at these hearings; you're the ones who seem to be intrigued by that story. I'm coming here, and I was invited principally, to talk about the Bear Head arrangement.

But I think that as a citizen of Canada I have a responsibility to provide information that I think can help you out, and I'm telling you not to get diverted by these wild goose chases. We're looking for $10 million. We're not looking for the reconciliation of something that appeared in Stevie Cameron's book about what the chef may or may not have seen at 24 Sussex. It's a vivid description and would make a good television show, but I'm saying that from what I know, that's not what you should be doing. What you should be doing is subpoenaing documents, subpoenaing bank records, proposing a deal.

The criminal justice system makes these kinds of deals on a daily basis. Let's find out what Schreiber has. He may have nothing. He may be tearing out the guts of this country for no reason. On the other hand, he may have something. Let's find out. What are we delaying for? Make him a deal. So he'll end up staying in Canada, so he'll end up not going to Germany, if he actually has something and if the testimony proves reliable.

There's a public interest in getting to the bottom of this story. We are not going to clean up our system of government until we get to the bottom of this story.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

And I think, Mr. Spector, the best way to do that is through a public inquiry.

But I have to ask you, if you don't think the cash transactions that you were referring to are relevant to what the committee is addressing, why did you bring them up? Are you telling us that this system of repayment was unethical or somehow illegal?

[Norman Spector]

I wrote about this in the afterword, and you invited me to appear here. I wrote about this in the—

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Mr. Spector, we didn't invite you. It was the members of the opposition who invited you.

[Norman Spector]

It was the committee. You are one committee.

Well, okay, if we're talking about the Conservative side of this committee now—

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I'm asking you, Mr. Spector, did you have any ethical or moral concerns about the cash payments?

[Norman Spector]

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to—

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I'm asking you, Mr. Spector, did you have any ethical or moral or legal concerns about the system of cash payments?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Now it's Mr. Spector's turn.

[Norman Spector]

I find quite interesting your statement that the public inquiry is the way to go, when particularly your Prime Minister, in his Christmas interview, suggested that maybe we don't need one, and when we then got a report suggesting very narrow terms of reference for that public inquiry.

So no, I think your committee has all the powers, quite frankly.

I accept Monsieur Ménard's disclaimer. I think the 10-minute rule is a problem, but I think there are ways around that. I think Bill Kaplan has suggested a way whereby you could focus your questioning.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Mr. Spector, can I take from your avoidance of answering the question I asked that you don't want to talk about the cash transactions that you introduced to this committee?

[Norman Spector]

Obviously I have no problems with the ethics of the cash transactions. I wrote about them in the afterword. I've been very forthcoming about them and I have no problem. I think that particularly because I was told they had passed muster with CCRA. So no, I don't have any ethical....

I'm not sure what you're suggesting by even asking that question. I wrote about that, and this material has been on the public record for three years. I haven't hidden it.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Can I ask you one last question? Where did you get these documents?

[Norman Spector]

I got them from a file in the Prime Minister's Office, which I asked to have made before I left the office. I thought what I was asking for was the documents that related to my involvement in this, but apparently there was more in the file. The first time I looked at this file was two weeks ago, when I was preparing for this committee. So it was a big surprise.