Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Can I ask you how much you were paid? Mr. Schreiber said on December 4 that half a million dollars was transferred into the MARC account. However, on November 29 he told the committee he had no idea how much you actually had been paid, but it wasn't half a million dollars. Can you tell--

[Marc Lalonde]

No, definitely not. It was probably not more than one-tenth of that. Mind you, in terms of the figure itself, if the public tender had been accepted and if the project had proceeded, $500,000 in legal fees for a project of this kind, when you consider everything that had to be done, is not an outrageous figure. It would involve the purchasing of land, setting up of the corporate structure, financing, negotiations with government, negotiations with unions, and addressing environmental and tax issues. Any businessman will tell you a figure like this would not have been excessive.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

He liked to pay people in cash. Did he ever pay you in cash?

[Marc Lalonde]

No.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I have one other question, and this is just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Mr. Schreiber, in testimony, made reference to the fact that we really have no idea of what goes on. When I started my questioning, I made reference to your long and distinguished career. Do you want to comment on that? I guess his statement led us to believe that government has absolutely no understanding of what goes on. Would you comment on that?

[Marc Lalonde]

I don't think I should be making comments on that.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

You've been at this for a long time.

[Marc Lalonde]

It could be a very long answer, frankly, and I don't think.... What do you want me to say?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Is there any truth to a statement like that?

[Marc Lalonde]

That governments don't know what they are doing?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

That governments really don't know what's going on, that there are other forces at work.

[Marc Lalonde]

Frankly, I think politicians know things that businessmen don't, and businessmen know things that politicians don't. There are two solitudes that need to meet sometime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you. I thank you kindly.

Mr. Hubbard, please.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When Mr. Schreiber appeared before our committee, Mr. Lalonde, and when Canadians saw him and heard the evidence he gave, many people didn't get a very good picture of what he represents. Was he credible? Was he honest? Was he reliable? Did he work professionally in terms of what he did? When your name is associated with him, could you give the committee, briefly...?

We had a lawyer here last week with Mr. Mulroney's group. He divorced himself. He separated from the other important witness we had. But you're an important witness in terms of offering our committee your impression of Mr. Schreiber and his work and whether he was honest and straightforward. Or was he the slippery fellow some Canadians perceive him to be?

What was your impression of Mr. Schreiber?

[Marc Lalonde]

I'm sure there are various opinions about everybody, including me. But I can tell you that in 1987...so I have known him for about 20 years. He's never asked me at any time to do anything that would be improper, and I have never heard it reported that he had done something improper, except for what I've read in the press.

I can tell you my own experience. This man has been quite straight with me.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

I would assume that when you offered to support his bail, you felt an injustice was being done, that he should have his so-called “day in court” to be able to retain his Canadian citizenship or to at least not be shipped out of the country very quickly by our present government.

[Marc Lalonde]

As I said, every Canadian is entitled to his freedom, if the courts recognize it, which was the case. I've never believed that anybody should stay in jail purely for financial reasons and I've acted accordingly with some other people.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Mr. Ménard, a brief question, and then Mr. Mulcair will finish the round.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Lalonde, you have answered our questions frankly and straightforwardly. However, the answer to one of the questions is still a little vague. You knew Mr. Schreiber. You have since learned that Mr. Schreiber himself admitted to paying $300,000. The person who says he received the money claimed that the amount was just $225,000. The money was paid, but there is no receipt, no written mandate, nothing.

Does that sound like the person you worked for legitimately, the person with whom your dealings were above suspicion and your transactions completely above board? I am sure that you, like most people, think that $300,000 is a lot of money to give to a politician shortly after he leaves office. Everyone thinks that from the start and waits for some explanation of why they should not think that.

According to your description of Mr. Schreiber and what you knew about him, he seemed to be a businessman of considerable means who did things above board. Can you explain why he paid $300,000 to that kind of man?

[Marc Lalonde]

As I said, the first time I heard about it was when Mr. Schreiber tried to sue Mr. Mulroney in Ontario. Messrs. Mulroney and Schreiber have already appeared before this committee and will do so again. You should ask them these questions, not me.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You did put up bail for him though. You did take on that commitment for him. And let us be clear about one thing: giving a former politician $300,000 is not above board, but your other transactions with him—

[Marc Lalonde]

Mr. Mulroney said that there was nothing illegal about it. He himself said so. If you want a legal opinion, please come to my office and I will bill you.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I do not need to. However, it did not seem to surprise you to find out that he— Were you not surprised?

[Marc Lalonde]

Of course I was surprised.