Information & Ethics Committee on June 5th, 2008

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

The Privacy Act probably evolved from the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As we moved forward we recognized that people had rights to privacy. So here we have these fundamental points of democracy that we cherish as a nation. To me this really threatens what we're trying to do. We boil it down to money.

I was asking one of our aides, and he seemed to think the budget of the Privacy Commissioner was about $14 million--understanding that a lot of education takes place, and there's money spent there. I know, from another investigation that was done through the Ethics Commissioner, one of these things isn't cheap. We're talking about thousands of dollars when a report goes through. If there were 839 complaints in 2006-07 and the budget back then was $10 million, you're probably not out of line saying it cost about $8,000. It's huge. We can brush this aside and say that's the cost of doing business.

I think we're really not done. We need to know exactly what's happening. We need your help. We need you to tell us there's a problem here. This is where the problem is. Then if we're to make amendments and change the act to the better, I firmly believe we have to make some amendments to the act that correct this situation.

This is serious. We're talking about not only one-quarter of the cost, but one-quarter of the energy that's spent. We have to get to the bottom of this, and I don't think we've done that today. As Maurice was saying, as much as you can say, I understand you can't.... We need some help here. I really think we have to make some changes.

[Ian McCowan]

I'm hopeful that the additional information we've already undertaken to provide to give you some summary information will help to further the discussion.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

It's a start.

[Ian McCowan]

At a high level, if we're going to make good public safety decision-making for Canadians, one of the key elements is having really good information about the cases in our system. So we're always going to be in the business of gathering as much as we can get, as recent as we can get, so we can make the best decisions possible.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I understand. If these are requests from the corrections officer, that's why we need to know this. If the majority of these are justified, then again we can see. But as Dr. Bennett said, if we're going to get these medical records, isn't there an easier way to do this? This is the sort of thing I'm trying to dig for. We have to get to the bottom of this, and maybe that means getting you back one more time.

[Ian McCowan]

I'm not sure of the extent that medical records play in this, but we'll undertake to get you some more information about that, and particularly about how they relate to when the situation on the file goes to the community.

On the decision-making we do, we have to get the best information and the most recent information we can. Because that fuels the whole range of decisions that are taken within our statutory framework, you are always going to have individuals who are affected by that, whether they are offenders or victims looking to get as much access to that information as they can. It's the nature of the beast.

Having said that, I take your point, and we'll certainly get you the information I promised. If you'd like to continue discussion we'd be pleased to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Wallace, please.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few more questions. Ms. Bennett just spurred me on to get a better understanding. As far as I know, I'm sure there's some place on the Hill that has some information on me.

It would be important for me to know, just from a hypothetical point of view, if this is the type of information that's in an inmate's file. If an inmate has racist tendencies, would that kind of information be in here? Would that determine who they might be bunked with in the cell? Are those the kinds of things that...?

[Ian McCowan]

Any information that's relevant to the management of an inmate's case is going to be in his file. Our statute requires us to basically gather anything that's going to have an impact.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

So it doesn't list it out in the statute. It just refers to management, anything to do with it.

I'd like to know what kinds of things are in an inmate's file. Also, on the requests that you're getting, is it skewed to those who are there for a longer time, for more serious crimes, or does it not really matter?

[Ian McCowan]

I can only respond in terms of what our statute requires.

Section 23 of the CCRA requires us:

To take all reasonable steps to obtain, as soon as is practicable, (a) relevant information about the offence; (b) relevant information about the person's personal history, including the person's social, economic, criminal, and young offender history; (c) any reasons or recommendations relating to the sentencing or committal that are given or made by the court that convicts, sentences or commits the person, and any court that hears any appeal; (d) any reports relevant to the conviction, sentence or committal that are submitted to the court; and (e) any other information relevant to administering the sentence or committal.

I'm cutting a bit out here, but that's basically it.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

So it's quite open, really.

[Ian McCowan]

This is the lifeblood of what we do. This is why we're unusual as a department. We have this grant, this rule that has been given to us by Parliament—and I think it's a sensible rule—that we learn as much as we possibly can about any given offender, so that we and the National Parole Board can make good decisions.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

In your presentation today, you talk about 3,500 complaints in your database. They could be ATIP pieces too. A full 91% of the complaints have to do with not meeting the deadline or disagreements with the exemptions applied. Do you know what the breakdown is? Is it mostly one or the other?

[Anne Rooke]

Approximately 48% are time-limit complaints.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

It's about half and half.

[Anne Rooke]

Dissatisfaction with the exemptions accounts for about 43%.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Would these cases be double-counted? I'm making a complaint because I didn't get the 30 days, and then because this is since 2003, I complain that I don't like what I got.

[Anne Rooke]

Exactly.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

This could be included in that 3,500. There could be double-counting there.

[Anne Rooke]

Yes, absolutely.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Would you say this was a resource issue for your department?

[Anne Rooke]

It has been a resource issue, but we have now obtained additional resources for the ATIP shop, and we're hoping that this will assist us in improving our response times. We're in the process of staffing up, and there's a dearth of qualified people in the ATIP field. We're having to take people who may not have ATIP experience, and there's quite a training period involved.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I haven't yet read the Information Commissioner's new report. I know it just came out, but I haven't got through it. He was indicating that one of the things we're lacking in this country—and it's something that he would be interested in doing—is a proper training program for access to information employees. I'm very happy that a department is here that actually deals with it on a daily basis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

You're at five minutes now.