Information & Ethics Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I'm listening. I'm not laughing, Mr. Szabo; I'm a happy guy.

[An hon. member]

Mr. Ménard's making him laugh.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Hold it.

Again, I want to encourage members to remember that if you--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Poilievre, please. Order.

To go back to the ruling on the admissibility of the Hubbard motion, we know that under our mandate it has to be restricted to public office holders in terms of its....

We are not going to get into opining at all on the Conservative Party of Canada in the matter it has between the Chief Electoral Officer and the act. We're talking about the activities of candidates who became public office-holders and, after the election, filed election expenses and returns that have been challenged by Elections Canada. Subsequent to becoming public office-holders, they have now been named by the Chief Electoral Officer as being parties to this matter, which was fully exposed in April. As you may recall, at that time we were talking about whether or not there were any obligations for any of those persons to make any reports or filings or to recuse themselves from any activities. This is what went on at that meeting.

So it's not so much what the Canada Elections Act is and what it does. The court is going to determine that. We are not going to have a play in that.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

But we might.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We shouldn't. We're not going to interfere with the courts and we're not going to--

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

It's written in the amendment. It says “make recommendations to Elections Canada”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I understand. But my ruling was on the motion, not the amendment. The member put in an amendment adding “making recommendations”. Some members may argue that is the responsibility of Procedure and House Affairs.

I gave some latitude to Mr. Van Kesteren, based on his presentation, that the intent of the motion was to be comprehensive and give our findings to whoever they might help. I bent a little bit to allow that to be in order.

Mr. Wallace, I'm sorry I've taken all this time, but for that reason I'm advising you that it would not be proper to go through the Canada Elections Act to debate whether this motion should be adopted. That's my ruling.

Mr. Ménard is next on a point of order.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Point of order, Mr. Chairman.

Some colleagues are not abiding by the decisions of the chair, and it's a sad spectacle. I think you should remind the government side in particular that once a decision is made, it has to be followed. The fact that the government is not following this rule is quite disappointing, especially given that you are an experienced parliamentarian whose judgment is now recognized. You have always served the House well. The fact that the government side has no respect for anything is sad to see.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Mr. Ménard, I appreciate the sentiment, but that is not a point of order.

Mr. Hiebert is next on a point of order.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Further to Mr. Ménard's comments, I'd like you to respect the ruling you made last November when you said that after the word “that”--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, order.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

--everything could be amended. This was Charles Hubbard's subamendment to a motion from the Bloc, where you allowed the committee to change everything--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Hiebert, order, please.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

--after the word “that”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, order.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I would like that precedent to stand within this committee so that we can continue to have rules that actually live within the Standing Orders of this House of Commons.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order. Thank you, Mr. Hiebert. Order, please.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Until you recognize the fact that you've allowed this precedent in the past, I will continue to make these points. You have ruled this way in the past--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

That was with regard to the Mulroney issue.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

It doesn't matter what it was with regard to. You allowed an amendment to change everything after the word “that”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order. Order. Order.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

It altered the scope, it changed the depth--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Hiebert, for the final time--