Evidence of meeting #45 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was questions.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Mayrand  Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

All I want is 15 minutes to discuss with my colleague, who is the only one you're allowing more time to ask questions, if he might consider that the important documentation that I have is more important than what he has, because we only have five minutes left. It's the least you can do. For crying out loud, the least you can do is give us an opportunity to formulate the best questions to get the best answers. It's 15 minutes.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I think you have that opportunity, but the committee has given instruction.

The next order of business for me is that the--

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

I'll move a motion--

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

No, I'm sorry, you don't have the floor. It was a point of order. I ruled that it was not a point of order.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

I'd like to move a motion now.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

No, I haven't recognized you. I must recognize Mrs. Jennings.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

A point of order, please. A point of order, Mr. Chair.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

No, I can't.

Order, order.

I had ruled Mr. Goodyear's point of order as not a point of order; it was a request. But he did not get the floor because it was his turn to be recognized; he got the floor for a point of order. Since it's not a point of order, his request cannot be considered.

The committee has taken a decision, and the decision is that we complete the round and excuse the witnesses.

12:45 p.m.

An hon. member

No, that's not the motion.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mrs. Jennings and Mr. Poilievre are the last two speakers who were on the list for the current round, so they would be entertained for the last five minutes each, at which time--

12:45 p.m.

An hon. member

I have a point of order.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Just a moment, please. I just want to make sure that everybody knows where we are.

I would then offer it to Mr. Mayrand, if he had any closing remarks or comments, after which time Mr. Bernier and Mr. Mayrand would be excused. It would be my intent then to suspend for a break and reconvene—I haven't quite decided when—probably at two o'clock, at which time we would move forward with our other scheduled business, which is to deal with the future witnesses and future meeting dates.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

I have a point of order.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Now, having said that, Mr. Goodyear, I believe, has again indicated that he has a point of order.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

I actually have two. I'll allow you, Mr. Chair, to tell me whether I can do both at the same time.

One, I'd like the motion that we just adopted read back to me and highlighted where it actually says in the motion that these last two rounds have to immediately follow the vote. I don't think that was the motion. It was that there were only two more questioners. It did not say anything about immediately following the vote.

I have a second point of order.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you.

That item is a matter of debate. The chair has already outlined what would happen.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, with all due respect—

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I'm sorry, with due respect, the member has just heard about an hour of debate on the motion made by Mr. Martin for the completion of the current round. That was two more people, and there was a proposed amendment to make it eight. That's what we just spent an hour debating. Now you're saying you want it read back because you don't understand what we decided. I'm sorry, that's debate.

You had another point of order.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON

I object to your misleading the public on what I said. I'm not interested in re-debating the motion; I'm just exposing your inaccuracies about what the motion said.

My second point is that I'd like to ask the clerk if it's customary behaviour for a chairman to arbitrarily rule this way.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

The clerk is not authorized. The clerk can advise the chair.

Order, please.

Members, respectfully, were given an opportunity to consider the motion of Mr. Martin and the amendment of Mr. Poilievre. The chair made a ruling, we called the votes, and the committee has decided. As it was passed, we decided to complete the round we are in. The last speaker was Mr. Martin. He is the one who made the motion that we complete the current round and then excuse Mr. Mayrand. That is what we debated for the last hour.

We've disposed of that motion. The committee has taken a vote, and that's the way we're going to proceed. The chair has to respect the decision of the committee to complete the current round, which is five minutes for Ms. Jennings and five minutes for Mr. Poilievre, and then to excuse the witness with the customary offer for him to say any final words before he is excused. Those are our rules. The committee has decided, and I have to proceed on that basis.

I'm now going to give the floor to Madam Jennings.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Mayrand. I think I can quite confidently speak for my caucus and my party in expressing our appreciation for the quality of the work and the impartiality and objectivity of Elections Canada and the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada both here in Canada, in our federal general elections, and abroad and elsewhere in other countries.

Conservative MPs have insinuated that when you refused to answer certain questions put to you at these meetings that necessarily meant that you were afraid of undermining the case that is currently before the court, in the application brought against Elections Canada by the Conservative Party. In my opinion, and the opinion of anyone with in iota of comprehension of the law, that is simply ridiculous.

Other standing committees of the House have heard witnesses on other subjects and where there were proceedings underway in a criminal or civil court, those witnesses have refused to answer certain questions.

I think it is reprehensible on the part of Conservative members of Parliament to insinuate that because the Chief Electoral Officer is refusing to answer certain questions that are sub judice before the Federal Court, he is somehow doing so because he is afraid of weakening his case before the Federal Court. We have had cases where witnesses before other standing committees on the LRT, the light rail transit project.... The Conservatives might remember that, as the environment minister, Mr. Baird, cancelled the whole program. Well, there were witnesses on both sides of that civil litigation who refused to answer questions before the standing committee.

My sense, in trying to be an objective person, is that the Chief Electoral Officer may not want to answer certain questions that the Conservative members of Parliament are asking because he doesn't want to harm the party even further than it has been harmed with its electoral fraud and financing scheme.

I have a question. There was a Conservative candidate in Cardigan, P.E.I., who spent over 90% of his campaign expenses on advertising, according to his campaign election returns. Well, that same riding, Cardigan, is one of the ridings that appeared in the tag line of a TV ad, along with other Conservative candidates. But it's not a riding that Elections Canada has identified as having participated in this scheme which it has found to be in violation of the law, one, and which it is refusing to provide rebates for. And secondly, when the returns were filed, the official agent of the Conservative Party candidate in Cardigan, P.E.I., did not report that ad as an electoral expense, and the national party returns didn't report it as an expense for that particular election campaign by the Conservative candidate in Cardigan.

Is there any way you can explain that? You may not have the information now. If you don't have the information, would you provide it in writing to members of this committee, through the clerk and the chair, as to why no expense was assigned by that campaign for that ad, which it and the Conservative Party media publicly attributed to that riding through a tag line for the official agent of the Conservative Party candidate in Cardigan, P.E.I.? In electoral financing, is it possible for an ad, whether print or electronic, to be attributed to a particular candidate, but that candidate does not have to report its value to Elections Canada? Is that a possibility?

I've gone over my time.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Yes, you did. Thank you.

Mr. Mayrand, is there anything on which you would care to comment briefly?

12:55 p.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

Again, it is a specific case, Mr. Chair. I indicated in my opening statement that I was not in a position to discuss specific cases.

July 16th, 2008 / 12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Poilievre, please, for five minutes.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

You said that it was legal to transfer expenses from the federal to the local level. Is that correct?