Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 13th, 2008

[David Campbell]

Just so that there's a clear understanding, we provided all the documents—every document in our possession—to Elections Canada. That included some documents, clearly, that were not issued.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

But why is it that some have your full letterhead and some others don't?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Proulx, je m'excuse, the time unfortunately....

We'll have more opportunities for questions, but we want to move now to Mr. Goodyear, please.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming.

We've heard a number of comments this morning asking whether contracts were signed, whether invoices were given out--I guess this seems to be the angle the jury is going at--when in fact I asked yesterday for documentation of where in the act it says that an individual candidate has to have a contract signed. There is no such thing, so don't be misled by the questioning.

I want to read you an example, very quickly, of some evidence I have from Elections Canada's records. I'm going to read it very specifically. What I'm after is this. I want to know how this is different. I want you to pay attention to the fact that there were no invoices in this thing, that in fact in this example it was an organized national advertising campaign, but paid for and expensed at the local level.

Having said that, let me read from Election Canada's own records. This is actually an affidavit too. It's in an affidavit before a real court. It says: “There was a regional media buy for all New Brunswick Liberal candidates in the 2006 election. The local campaign of Dominic LeBlanc in the 2006 election, where Mr. LeBlanc was elected as a Member of Parliament, apparently”—and I'm stressing that “apparently”—“participated in this regional buy organized by the national party.”

The documentation on record at Elections Canada in relation to one of the participating campaigns is attached as exhibit 30, if anybody wants to look that up. Exhibit 30 is a copy provided by Elections Canada of the cheque from the local official agent in payment of the ad. The cheque is made out to the Liberal Party.

Now, also on that list is Mr. Hubbard, across the way. I can tell you they've been very successful in voting against having any of this information released at this forum. The content of the ads, except for the tag lines.... Monsieur Jean-Pierre Kingsley has said—he is the past Chief Electoral Officer—the content of the ad is not relevant; the tag line is all that's relevant to make it local. So these guys at least did that; they at least put the tag line on. But the ads themselves are entirely national.

Now, here's the interesting thing. Despite the fact that the Liberal Party memo referred to above indicates that local campaigns were to pay for the national party cost of the ad--I want to point this out in defence of Monsieur LeBlanc--there is no apparent listing of any payment for these ads in Mr. LeBlanc's case. Now, I don't know whether that means he did pay it and there's no record of it; I don't know what it means. But what I can tell you is that the ads stated that his campaign paid for it.

Now, this is concerning me, because apart from the non-compliance of Mr. LeBlanc, the Liberal regional media buy was accepted by Elections Canada nonetheless, and it shares identical similarities to what we're talking about here today.

I'm just going to close with a quote from Elections Canada—

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Goodyear, you're at four minutes already in a five-minute round.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you very much for interrupting me when I was on a roll.

A letter from the director general of the Liberal Party of Canada in Alberta says this:

During the past election campaign, the Liberal Party of Canada in Alberta transferred funds and/or paid for services in kind directly to the candidate on whose behalf you were acting as official agent.

The letter goes on to refer to an expense incurred by the Liberal Party, the national Liberal Party, which should be claimed at the local level.

This goes to Mr. Martin's constant issue about claiming what should be a national expense at the local campaign. Clearly these ads are local; they're expensed locally. Mr. Martin's NDP party did it. The Bloc did it. The Liberals did it.

Do you have any reason why Elections Canada is not looking into those parties?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, please.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Oh, I'm sorry, I ran out of time. My apologies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I regret that the five-minute time slot has been used up.

Excuse me, Mr. Del Mastro, I'm in the middle of speaking to the witnesses. Thank you, sir.

Our time slots are for questions and answers. Unfortunately, the full five minutes was used for the question, but if you have anything you would care to say, I'll allow you an opportunity to make an appropriate answer.

[David Campbell]

Only to say that, as we'd indicated in our original statement, we're not experts in the particulars of the Canada Elections Act, nor were we involved in any of those transactions, so we don't have any opinion one way or the other.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Before I move on to the next questioner, it's a good lead-in. You did say in your opening statement that you were not experts, and I don't expect you to be, but you probably are aware that for your tax return or for any business corporate tax returns or for any other official filings, original documentation is required.

[An hon. member]

On a point of order--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Excuse me, I'm asking a question of the witness.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

The point is to relevance. You're talking about tax returns. We're talking about ethical standards of public office-holders.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I'm sorry. If you hear me out, I think you'll understand.

Original documents.... Mr. Proulx had walked through the detailed invoice with GST on the bottom for all the other documents. I've only seen this for the first time and that's the reason I'm raising it, simply for clarification of what your representations were. The individually lined one, which is an invoice that I would have expected the riding of Trinity—Spadina to receive, would look like this. Here is your charge, plus GST as a total.

You indicated that you did not provide this. You produced it on your letterhead. It looked like a regular invoice of yours, but the--

[An hon. member]

I have a point of order.

[An hon. member]

Is this a Liberal time slot?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

The chair can ask questions. If you're going to challenge that--

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

No, I have a point of order with where you're going with your question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you, but that's not a point of order.

So I would like to ask--

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

It's a point of order with respect to relevance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I'm following up on the conversation that Mr. Proulx had with the witnesses with regard to this invoice. I think it's important, because original documents--

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Chair, I know very well what you're looking to try to do, but my point is with respect to relevance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Well, I rule it to be relevant. Thank you.

Now, you are aware--

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

You haven't heard what my point of order is, Mr. Chair.