Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 13th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I now have the answers to all of them, sir.

One at a time, it sounds like.... Let's tick them off one at a time. There are only 10 of them. Okay?

On Mr. Gerstein, the clerk's staff reports that they spoke to Gaye Raybould, at the number, and they indicated that they would convey the message to Mr. Gerstein. Subsequent to that, there were no communications received from Mr. Gerstein. On August 1, 2008, a summons was signed by me and delivered to Kilrea and Associates, and Kilrea and Associates reports that it was served on Mr. Gerstein's housekeeper when he was not present. So you're correct, sir, I don't know whether or not that's an appropriate service to a witness, but the facts are correct as you present them, sir.

The next one.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I recall, you said to me earlier today that we have all the information you have. You said that, and I'm going to repeat that the only documentation you had that we don't have is in fact a request from Madam Jennings for testimony. We have not received anything we have requested. Now you are admitting information that you told the committee earlier today you don't have. This is so seemingly.... I'm not going to use that word because it's way beyond that.

Mr. Muttart, who was not summoned, is in the court proceeding. He has, through his people, been talking to the clerk's office for a number of days requesting a simple thing. Were you going to offer him the same special backroom deal, the Mayrand accommodation, or was he not going to be afforded that? The clerk sent basically a non-response, “See attached”, which was the letter from Robert Walsh. As a result--and I'm telling you I got this letter just recently--Mr. Muttart is not going to appear because it would jeopardize his testimony in a real court room.

Mr. Chair, I believe you knew this was coming before today. If you didn't, your clerks knew there was a problem. The simple answer was this. Were you going to make another deal with Mr. Muttart, yes or no?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I can respond to that.

Mr. Patrick Muttart, former strategic planner, was contacted, or contact was tried by phone and a letter was dropped off at the Conservative headquarters. We subsequently heard from him that he agreed to appear before us, and no summons was issued for Mr. Muttart.

Yesterday I received an e-mail on my BlackBerry forwarded to me by the clerk, in which Mr. Muttart raised the issue that he would like to have the.... Oh, we also sent Mr. Muttart the response of the law clerk about the sub judice convention, and he came back and said that was not acceptable and he would not appear. So I'm aware as of yesterday...no, this morning I got the confirmation from the clerk that he had said my response to him was unacceptable and he would not appear.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

So your response was that you would not afford him the same deal you made with another witness. And as a result of that, he has now chosen that he can't appear before this committee. Is that what you're saying?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I gave him the opinion of the law clerk of the House of Commons, that the sub judice convention could be invoked if a question was asked of him and he felt there was a reason he could make that argument. And the chair would have to determine whether or not he would be required to answer that question. That opinion of the law clerk—

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

I just have one other question, then, Mr. Chair. When was it that you were going to tell the committee you had this information? We have one more day left of testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Yes, I found it out after we adjourned yesterday.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

But listen, we have one more day here and we don't have all the documentation. We've got one more day and we don't even have the research that we've requested. So do you not see the illegitimacy of this particular procedure?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

No.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

You don't? Okay, well, that says it all.

No, I'm good with that. You don't see any reason for us to have all the facts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, please. Order. I need to just tone this down.

[An hon. member]

You've been speaking with this guy for 45 minutes. How long will we be here while he's tying up the whole committee?

[An hon. member]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I understand that.

Order, please. Order. Please, I'm asking other honourable colleagues to understand that Mr. Goodyear did raise a point of order. I acknowledged it. We have agreed to go through the list. There are only 10 people. Please bear with us. The member's opinions are his opinions and they speak for themselves. I'm not going to debate them with him, but I will try to help understand where I was.

And Mr. Goodyear, with regard to Mr. Muttart, all I can say is that all of this communication and the confirmation to me happened between last evening and right now, so that is not an unreasonable period of time. But nobody has received...other than the chair, because he was communicating through the clerk to me about having some special consideration. This morning it was just too late to do anything. But he had agreed; he was not summonsed. There are no consequences and I hope we'll be able to have him at a future date.

So that's my—

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Can we expect, before this thing ends tomorrow, to get any of this documentation—the affidavits of service? Can we expect any cooperation? I know you have got information for the Liberals. Can we get some—

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

No, sir.... Order, please.

I want to affirm to all honourable members that anything I have circulated to any member has gone to all members, period, 100%. I affirm that.

Just this afternoon, because of the question that was raised, I asked the clerks if they would try to get the affidavits of service from the bailiff in time to deal with this session here. I have some, and they're all dated August 13 from Cassels Brock. Is that right? No, not from Cassels Brock, but the affidavits of service of those who in fact were served.

So I can respond on an individual basis, and I'd be happy to provide you with what I knew, and when, on the next person you have on your list, sir.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Well, the only thing I would suggest to you is that you've mentioned now that this started between last night and this morning. I have e-mail records that it started yesterday afternoon. It's a fine point, Mr. Chair, but it goes to the sense that again—

[An hon. member]

Do I have to put up with this nonsense?

[An hon. member]

Do we have to put up with that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, order.

Mr. Del Mastro and Mr. Martin, please bear with us for a short while. We're going to be finished in a few minutes.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, I really don't know where to go from here except to say...and I respect your clerks. I know they work very, very hard. But I just can't believe we're going through these witnesses unprepared. We are prepared because we have our researchers, but there is obviously documentation we need to prove our case. I don't want to infer that there is obstruction going on here, but we have one day left and we don't have any documentation that the Conservative Party has asked for—simple stuff, simple things. You're not getting it to us. I don't know why.

Mr. Chair, I'm just asking...we've got one day left on this, and frankly I think your witnesses are doing a great job for the Conservative Party. You've actually asked the question of ethics three times and got the answer, “No ethical problem”, three times. You've had one public office-holder here, so it's going well for us. But I'm just saying, for heaven's sake, Mr. Chair, it's just parliamentary tradition to have all the documents in place.

Yes, I spoke to the chair off the record at lunch, and he informed me that he doesn't have the list of the things I requested. I promised I would get you the minutes from yesterday, but I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to get you the list of the things I requested yesterday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

No, I said that I would get the blues, and I received them this morning. I do have them.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Perfect.

I don't know where else to go with this, Mr. Chair. I've said my piece. I think this is, frankly, unbelievable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I respect that, sir. I respect your opinion, sir. I do.

The final comment I would make in regard to the point that the honourable member has raised....

Order, please. Just listen to this carefully. This is very important.

At 3:33 p.m. today, less than half an hour ago, we received the report from the bailiff on the service of the summonses. It is in translation now, and I will make sure the members have that the first thing tomorrow.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

I appreciate that, Mr. Chair, and I thank you for that.