Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 14th, 2008

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

The members do?

We'll not be able to give you an answer for a second, because we're going to deal with Mr. Martin's motion that the committee suspend at the end of the second round for two hours.

Is that correct, Mr. Martin?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

To get to committee business?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

No, he did not say that. He said suspend at the end of the second round, which is Mr. Tilson, for two hours. That is the motion.

Is that correct, sir?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It was certainly my intention that we move on to other agenda items. I have no interest in a third round with Mr. Mayrand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Sir, your motion, as written by the clerk, was just that we—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I thought I did say so that we could proceed with other agenda items.

[An hon. member]

I think cue cards should be held up here.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'd like to vote on the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

There could be an amendment made by another speaker. Could someone get on the list and make that...? Okay.

We have Mr. Dykstra, then we had Mr. Goodyear, and.... You're not done?

[An hon. member]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We have a speakers list. If anybody has points of order, they should be points of order that are urgent and relate to the now. Let's otherwise allow people who are in the middle of speaking to complete their turn.

Mr. Goodyear, we want to complete your intervention.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Could I possibly have some quiet from the opposition first, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, please, colleagues.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for getting an answer from Monsieur Mayrand on whether he'll be able to attend this afternoon or not.

Obviously, at the outset I am going to vehemently oppose this motion. This is another attempt to shut down access to a witness who is an absolute expert and at the centre of this entire process. We've seen all of the witnesses we need, and it would be nice to have two hours. Some of the members have indicated they want to spend a few hours to do some preparatory work. I'd like to suspend for 12 hours and get Libby Davis here as a witness. Yes, I know it's Davies. My apology to the member.

I have great concerns about this. I know full well that we don't have the numbers to win this vote. I know full well that it doesn't matter what words come out of my mouth; I will not convince you to allow us to question this witness. There can be no harm in getting at the truth, unless you have something to hide.

We had every single one of our witnesses denied. We asked at the original meeting if we could have eight additional rounds with Monsieur Mayrand. This committee--not this side of this committee, but the opposition side--voted this down and basically shut down our ability to generate questions from Monsieur Mayrand. So knowing that the numbers, the tyranny of the majority, would dictate the outcome, we asked for a number of documents from Monsieur Mayrand. Some of them were just provided this morning--taken back because there was something wrong with them. That's fair. We agreed to give them back, because that stuff happens. We just got them back.

My point is that we've asked for 12 pieces of documentation so we can move forward with our side. Until two hours ago, the Liberals had all the documentation they had asked for; we had absolutely nothing. All of the witnesses we've asked for have been denied their right to appear here to present our side and prove to Canadians that all parties do this in every extent, in every fashion. The only good news behind this is that the witnesses who did show, the witnesses called by the opposition, actually did support our case.

Now we're going to shut down this thing. In some ways it's good to see that this partisan, illegitimate forum is done. We know that when and if any report from this committee hits the House it will be dead on arrival. But we have the opportunity to get more information from this witness. This witness is here before other witnesses.

I really don't know what else to say. We came here in good faith to play by the rules. It's been difficult every day to learn the new rules and how they might change. We've heard you defend yourself and make changes in how you perceive talking to a witness as not talking to a witness. We've seen you backtrack on statements about summonses. This has been a farce. It's a joke. I don't understand how we can now vote to not give us more opportunity to question this witness. I just can't believe this.

One of the witnesses that the opposition called was the chairman for the national party. Did you learn something that he was going to say that would help our case? Is that why you voted to get him out of here? Just this morning we had a gentleman who was summonsed and showed up--

[An hon. member]

Wrong day.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

It's not relevant. The gentleman's here right now doing his civic duty as an honest Canadian, and do you know what? He's denied, when there's an open chair here.

It has been suggested by an opposite member....

I'm not debating you, Mr. Chair. If you want to have a conversation, then why don't you get on the speakers list?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

He was not denied, sir. He is going to be heard by the committee. The committee voted to hear him. He was not denied.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Really. Well, you've helped my case, Mr. Chair. And thank you for interrupting me.

Mr. Chair, the motion is to move to committee business, so despite what you're trying to say at this point--

[An hon. member]

What a phenomenal waste of time.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Then we should withdraw the motion, because there's no way we can hear from this witness if we adopt this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order. I'm going to interfere. Order.

I think everyone should be reminded that the vote that passed is that the witness Mr. Goldstein will be heard after we complete all other business scheduled for today. He will be heard. That was the vote of the committee.

And please, Mr. Goodyear, you should not say that he has been denied. We want to hear him, but it would appear that there's--

[An hon. member]

Throw that guy out of here.

[An hon. member]

We'll subpoena you for Monday at 4:30.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I'm going to suspend for two hours.