Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 14th, 2008

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So it's not pivotal whether or not you actually have somebody nominated in that period of time?

[Marc Mayrand]

Again, the goods use and transfer would occur after the nomination of the candidate. I'm not sure who's running a campaign, if there's no candidate. Maybe I'm missing--

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

No, that's exactly my point. It appears that the Conservative Party of Canada undertook contractual obligations, which they say they did on behalf of candidates who were not nominated at that point in time.

[Marc Mayrand]

In that case, there would have been no agent. If there's no candidate, there's no agent. I'm not sure who would have authorized anyone to contract expenditures on behalf of somebody who's not there.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you. That's my point exactly.

I will turn it over to Mr. Pacetti.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mayrand, thank you for appearing this afternoon.

You have said several times that expenses are not transferable from a party to a candidate. However, we have seen the evidence that some expenses were incurred by the Conservative Party. Some expenses were transferred, like advertising expenses, on which we are all in agreement, and polling and office expenses. Are there other expenses that have not been mentioned so far that were transferred from the Conservative Party to candidates? When we look at the returns... There has been mention of advertising, polling and office expenses.

[Marc Mayrand]

I am not in a position to give a general answer. Perhaps I am not understanding your question properly, but again, you can't transfer...

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

You are currently reviewing some candidate expenses...

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, order.

Mr. Pacetti, I'm sorry. You actually have your own time slot coming up. The five-minute period for Madam Redman is now finished—just to be fair to all members.

However, if the witness has anything further to the point....

[Marc Mayrand]

As I have repeatedly said, you cannot transfer expenses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Now we have Mr. Tilson for five minutes.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Mayrand, I'm going to read some names to you: Brenda Chamberlain, a former Liberal member of Parliament; Olivia Chow, New Democratic Party; Colleen Beaumier, Liberal; Libby Davies, New Democratic Party; Glen Pearson, Liberal; Sid Ryan, NDP; Diane Marleau, Liberal; Yvon Godin, NDP; Raymond Bonin, Liberal; Nathan Cullen, NDP. None of these names, Mr. Mayrand, is posted on your website.

I have additional names—25 names at least—from the New Democratic Party and the Liberals whose returns are also not posted on your website. This is pursuant to the discussion we had earlier with you, prior to the break. Some of the names are Dan Smith, Allyce Herle, Mario Lévesque, Verona Jackson, Isabelle Maguire, Anne Levesque, Stéphane Ricard. I don't think any of those are of members of Parliament. The other names—with the exception of Mr. Ryan, I believe—are, and of course Brenda Chamberlain is no longer a member of Parliament.

This is the testimony we heard from you before the break: you have indicated to us that you're not prepared to talk today about anyone whose returns you haven't posted on your website, because your review is ongoing. Some if not all of these reviews, we believe, relate to advertising expenses claimed by the local candidate, whether a current member of Parliament or a candidate.

My concern, Mr. Mayrand, is that we have made allegations that the other parties are involved in this issue that's before this committee and before the different investigations that are going on. The opposition parties have said no, that's not true. Why? Because you haven't said they're true. And yet their names appear to be still under investigation, for some reason. I understand; you say you can't talk about it. But it certainly would appear that these names relate to advertising expenses claimed by the local candidate.

There are other names that I'd like to refer to. This is from Mississauga—Brampton South.

Mr. Chairman, I know you may not like my doing this.

But I think it's important to show the volume of names that are probably under investigation by you. I believe this committee needs to hear these witnesses. Either the Liberals and the New Democrats and the Bloc.... I haven't given any Bloc names, so you're safe for the moment, but those two parties clearly are under review by you. How can we honestly proceed in these hearings without hearing those people as witnesses?

I'm going to read some of the ridings: Mississauga—Brampton South, New Democratic Party, Nirvan Balkissoon; Ed Chudak, New Democratic Party, Newmarket—Aurora; Crispin Colvin, Elgin—Middlesex—London; Verona Jackson, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound; Joe Fontana—I remember him—from London North Centre; Gary Burroughs, Niagara Falls. This is just Ontario, sir.

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]...Quebec?

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Well, I haven't gotten to those, because I'm probably going to run out of time. Maybe someone else can read them in the next round.

In New Westminster—Coquitlam, there's Joyce Murray.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Could you stop the clock?

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Chairman, you are interrupting my time, and I have every right to put these names forward. I have a question in mind, and you're stopping me from proceeding with my question. You're interrupting my time. You have no right to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

If I may, respectfully, sir, we are in the second round. It is a five-minute round. Already, four minutes and 38 seconds have expired. The five-minute timeframe should be for the question and for the answer, as you know, sir.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I can use my time however I want to use it, and don't you dare say I can't. Don't you tell me how to ask my questions. I'll ask my questions the way I see fit, and you just sit there and listen.

I'm going to continue, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to proceed with the names: Alice Finnamore, New Democratic Party, from Tobique—Mactaquac; Jennifer Pollack, Calgary West; Duff Stewart from Vegreville—Wainwright. There are a whole bunch of names from the New Democratic Party—

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, please.

I'm sorry. Respectfully, your time has expired, sir.

I'm going to move over to Mr. Pacetti, please.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman,

I'll try to ask a question.

Mr. Mayrand, I am going to go ahead with my last question.

Everyone agrees: the Conservative Party transferred expenses to candidates. We also know that this involves advertising, polling and office expenses, as Ms. Lavallée said this morning.

Are there other expenses that you are currently reviewing that we are not aware of? I am talking about advertising, polling and office expenses. I am not asking you the name of the candidate.

[Marc Mayrand]

To date, I have refused to refund certain expenses. I have not allocated those expenses. I stress this because there is an investigation that will determine whether offences have been committed under the Act. The only decision that has been made, which is in the public domain, is to reject the claims as they were submitted, because they were not incurred by the people who made them.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Right, I have no problem with that.

Apart from the advertising, surveys and office expenses that were refused, what other expenses were refused, for example accommodations, telephone or other things?

[Marc Mayrand]

Some cases relate to office expenses, including rent.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Were transfers of expenses used?

[Marc Mayrand]

I am not able to confirm or deny that at present.