Information & Ethics Committee on April 1st, 2009

[Vincent Gogolek]

Well, that is our system. I'm not overly familiar with how that is done, to the extent that we're requesters, we're not commercial. We have not run into that, and we have not had experience with that.

There are a number of policy reasons for doing it that way, especially if you have flow-throughs, reasons of GST, or other things. There are a number of reasons it could be done that way. In B.C. we have not had any particular problems with it being done the way it is. But I would really have to refer you to Mr. Loukidelis for detailed information on that.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I wanted your views about whether you thought that was a good idea generally and whether you think maybe something like that should be applied to the federal system.

[Vincent Gogolek]

Well, in our experience in B.C. we have not had major problems with it. But as to the reasons we have not had any major problem with it, I'm afraid I'm just not--

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Your organization doesn't--

[Vincent Gogolek]

We do not have a policy on this.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Right. Okay. I understand.

It's been suggested that large commercial enterprises that collect information, say, on companies doing business with the government often do access to information requests and use that information in the general credit information that they have on all Canadian companies and foreign companies that do business with the Canadian government, and then they sell that information to their customers. Do you think in that sort of a circumstance it would be fair for taxpayers to have some relief from the cost of providing that information to those organizations?

[Vincent Gogolek]

I think we have to be very careful about transferring systems that would be appropriate for somebody using a government service, and who would take that aspect and use it for their own commercial benefit. I think that's a little different, because what we're talking about here is a right guaranteed under statute, which the Supreme Court of Canada has said has quasi-constitutional status.

Our organization's view at FIPA is that we don't want to see anything restricting the average Canadian's ability to get information, because that's how accountability and transparency work. The huge danger here is that if you bring in a system like this, it could be used.... And we see this happening right now. I'm sure Mr. Rubin could tell you about the times he's been punished with fees or huge estimates for producing documents. We've had fee assessments overturned in British Columbia frequently, where governments have assessed fees.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

All right. Thank you.

Mr. Rubin, you describe yourself as a frequent access requester. How many requests would you make on an annual basis, on average?

[Ken Rubin]

I'm not sure, but a few hundred or more.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay.

Are you doing this as a journalist? On whose behalf would you normally be making those access requests? I ask this in a generic sense, as I'm not asking for the individuals' names.

[Ken Rubin]

It's whoever comes to me, but normally it's public interest groups, and perhaps the media. I do a lot on my own, and for corporations too.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay. Just out of curiosity, how are you paid for your services?

[Ken Rubin]

That's curious. Sometimes I am, and sometimes I'm not.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay.

[Ken Rubin]

But I'm not a data broker—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

No, I understand that.

[Ken Rubin]

—and I'm not a heavy commercial user, if that's what you're trying to get at.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'm just curious to know the types of individuals, the class of the individuals who make significant requests, and on what basis.

With respect to cabinet confidences, could you give us an example of a recent cabinet matter that you would want to have access to, just to give us a flavour of the kind of thing, say, within the last year or two, that you might have made a request for on your own behalf, or somebody else's behalf?

[Ken Rubin]

Well—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'm just interested to know.

[Ken Rubin]

Well, I mean, you can't get them, so that's point number one.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

But if you could get them, what kind of thing would you request?

[Ken Rubin]

Well, as I was saying, it would primarily be on things like why, for instance, is the environmental assessment process being dismantled? Is there any federal input into how the tar sands should be developed in the future? What's the cabinet doing about the funding and future of asbestos, and its use overseas? What are they doing on the infrastructure program, and how are they setting it out so that some of these programs will be accountable?

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay.

To Mr. Rubin again—and perhaps Mr. Gogolek could answer this as well—do you believe that Canadians should have a right to know who is asking for information from the government? If we're moving to a system where we're making virtually everything available, and to people outside of Canada, do you think it's also fair for Canadians to know who's asking for their information?

For example, I think Canadians might want to know if a foreign government were asking for information, especially on matters where there might be a dispute between Canada and that foreign government. What do you think about that? Do you think we have a right to know who is asking for information from our government?

Either one of you could respond.

[Ken Rubin]

The short answer is no.