Evidence of meeting #14 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Exactly. In addition to our corporate services, of course there are the information technology and financial services that we get from the House of Commons and the Library of Parliament.
Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
They are included in that amount.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
When we take a look at your budget and we divide it among the approximately 3,100 people you provide oversight for--and let's keep in mind that people self-report--it comes out to about $2,300 per person. That seems like a lot of money, a lot of resources per person to provide these reports, especially, as I said, considering it's self-reporting. Could you provide us with a breakdown? What portion of that budget is for special investigations? How much have you budgeted for investigations of the sort you've referenced and how much is just for regular ongoing operations? I didn't see it in the tables here broken down in that manner.
I'd like to go back to this business of sponsored travel and the--
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Before you get there, I want to be sure there's clarity about what's being asked for. In the current budget we're not anticipating any investigations, are we, other than anything that's going on now?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We have one investigation going now, but who knows?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Yes, it's indiscriminate. So when you budget, I think you'd have to be guessing about allocation of resources.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's right. We would assume that because we had four this year, maybe there'll be four next year, but who knows?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Most of the work you're doing in the coming year, as I understand it, is substantively going to be continuing to educate and inform and to receive and process documents that are filed, which is normal course of business. I think what Mr. Wrzesnewskyj is after are things that are not normal course of business.
Would that be a fair reflection?
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
There are two items here. It's costing the public purse $2,300 per person for the 3,100 people you provide oversight for. Most of that work is self-reporting, because you don't have an audit function. So people like MPs provide the information to you. You set deadlines and say there are going to be penalties, but $2,300 seems like a lot for the number of people and what's entailed in terms of the actual work.
Then the second part of it is this. What would the cost be and what can you project and give us a sense of what would be the cost for special investigations? If you went back the last five years, there would be on average a certain number of investigations that have cost a certain amount. What is the contingency? What can we expect potentially? I know you can't arrive at an exact number, but it'd be tremendously helpful to know what your office has budgeted for that sort of contingency.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
When the new act came into force, there was wider scope for people to be investigated. There will be more investigations than there were before the act. We did a schematic sort of exercise and we came up with a figure of $24,000 per investigation. As I said, there's a big range of possibilities on how extensive an investigation needs to be. We've not yet done one where we had to do any kind of travel, for example. That's the only figure we can really come up with. We've had them cost as much as $40,000 and as little as $13,000 or $14,000.
On the other comment about self-reporting and what work there is to do, most of the work that's done is discussion with the individuals who have self-reported. You take a look at what they've given you, and then you have to investigate around the information you have to make sure they've given you the right aspects and you've asked the right questions. The compliance officers spend quite a bit of time with a great many of the people under the act and the code working out things like, for example, what they call Chinese walls--if they have unusual circumstances and they have to be careful not to put themselves into a conflict situation. The stuff just doesn't come in and get put in a file somewhere. If there's anything unusual about the information that comes in, we spend quite a bit of time with the individual. It isn't just dropping it into the bucket.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
There's a second question I wanted to get at. MPs are excluded under the regulations of the act for travel. Does the code also exclude family members--for instance, family members of public office holders?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
They have to report the family members in the sponsor travel report under the code.
Liberal
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, it is.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay. So that's within that number.
Have any public office holders requested your approval in the last two years to accept travel by chartered or private aircraft?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We'd have to put a public report out on that. We haven't had any reports.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Just to follow up on that last question, what do you mean by a public report on private air travel?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There's a requirement in the act that they make a report that is made public, and we've not had any to make public.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Following up on the line of questions about the number of staff and the number of people you're responsible for, I understand there are legal services, corporate management, communication. How many people are dedicated simply to monitoring or receiving the self-reported statements from these 3,000-odd individuals?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's a little under half our staff. It's about 18 or something.
What's your complement, Lyne?
