Evidence of meeting #25 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was backlog.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Colleagues, we have Madam Thi Lac, Mr. Siksay, and Mr. Dhaliwal on the list. I think that's everyone. When we finish that we'll quickly go in camera to deal with that and discuss the itinerary of the committee. There are some things I would like to propose, and I think we could do it much quicker in camera. So if that's acceptable, we'll have these last three and then go in camera.
Madam Thi Lac, please.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I am not going to use the five minutes, given that we do not have a lot of time. I am going to ask a question with several parts.
You said that, in the past, you had difficulty getting candidates interested in the positions you had to fill. You explained that the challenges of the job and the matter of advancement were at the root of the difficulty.
Have you managed to solve the recruiting problem? We know that we now have to do the same research and offer the same training when hiring contractors as when hiring permanent staff. You are right to say that the costs are astronomical, given that the employees are only going to be there temporarily.
Could you tell me the employee turnover rate and the percentage of contract employees to permanent ones? Have things changed there?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Yes, things have changed. That is why, Mr. Chair, I made it clear in my opening remarks that we had developed a human resources strategy as part of this submission and of our budget analysis. We specifically want to stop relying on contract workers, especially for our investigations.
At the moment, we have 17 consultants. They are not permanent employees. Of that number, 4 are in administrative support. In all cases, we choose permanent employment as quickly as we can.
For the investigators, I have just been given the exact figures. Instead of everyone starting at PM-5 level, as was the case in the past, they start at PM-2 and then move to PM-3, PM-4 and PM-5 levels. That gives them some career progression.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
On average, how long before people leave your organization?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
There were several departures two years ago, especially among the investigators. They had all reached the PM-5 ceiling and there was a shortage in the public service. Several of them got steady jobs providing training, or dealing with access to information requests in a department.
The departure problem has been solved. We have a strategy for replacing those people and it is going very well. Now the people who leave our organization are temporary employees and consultants. The pace of the departures has changed.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Marleau, has there been a situation in the past when the recommendations of the advisory panel have been dramatically changed by the Treasury Board ministers with regard to the budget for the office of the commissioner?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I know of no other situation in the past. I know of one situation when a commissioner asked for x and the panel said no, it's x minus y, and that was recommended to Treasury Board. But I don't know of a case in which an agent of Parliament went through the challenge function of Treasury Board Secretariat and a recommendation from the panel and what came out was different. I don't know of a case.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
So this is the first time this kind of situation has developed, to your knowledge.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
To my knowledge it is, yes.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
When you say Treasury Board ministers made the approval, which ministers were involved? Which Treasury Board ministers were involved?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
The President of Treasury Board chairs. It's a cabinet committee. For the life of me, I can't remember who the other members are, but I can find out for you.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Okay.
Mr. Marleau, do you think this is a punitive action by the government because they don't like the systemic analysis in the most recent set of report cards?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, I don't think I should speculate on whether it's punitive or deliberate.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I need to correct that, Mr. Chairman. I sit at the pleasure of Parliament. To remove me, you need a resolution of the Senate and of the House of Commons. So unlike other officers who serve at pleasure, I have a certain comfort about being disliked.
No, I will only respond as I responded to Ms. Hall Findlay earlier: I intend to pursue this, and I intend to pursue it aggressively.
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
When you say that you intend to pursue it aggressively, what means are at your disposal to do that?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
My first pass would be to resubmit, and maybe you'll see me here for the supplementary (B)s in the fall, if they approve.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Okay.
Do you think this is another indication of the lack of political will to deal seriously with access to information and the implications of it for government?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I think my comments in the past I stand by. A lot could be achieved with leadership administratively, without necessarily reopening the statute and without spending a whole lot of money. A strong signal from the top would bring about, I think, a quite different performance and improvement.
I don't want to comment on political motive or will except to say that on the positive side of the ledger I've seen, for instance in the Department of Justice, what deliberate executive leadership can do in terms of improving performance under ATIA.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Is this situation an indication of some kind of conflict of interest between the interests of the government and the interests of Parliament and the interests of Canadians in ensuring their quasi-constitutional right to having access to information? Are the two things at odds there? Is it a conflict of interest for the government to have this ability to reduce your budget when you're doing this work?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Mr. Chairman, for years several agents of Parliament have expressed that concern.
Conservative
Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
A point of order, Mr. Chairman. I thought I heard earlier that his budget wasn't reduced.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
For years several parliamentary agents have expressed discomfort with the fact that they are accountable to Parliament and yet are subject to the executive in funding their mandate. The whole concept of the panel, which was brought in in 2004, was to try to alleviate that.
In fact, agents of Parliament are now more accountable because of this, because the submission has to be reviewed by a parliamentary panel and the Treasury Board Secretariat before it's translated into a supplementary estimate at the Treasury Board. So there's a challenge function from the secretariat, there's a challenge function from the panel, there's a challenge function from Treasury Board ministers when they look at it, and then of course there's your challenge function as part of the supply process.
I think the panel was a great improvement. It brought transparency to the process. I don't think there's a procedure provided for Treasury Board to feed back to the panel a decision that is different from the recommendation, and that may be a flaw in the model.