Evidence of meeting #26 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was terms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
If I may, I don't have the reference, but I think any inquiry about political affiliation is out of order and inappropriate for committee. I'll see if I can get the actual reference, but could you move on to something else until we get that?
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Sure. I wasn't aware of that.
You talked about the past, and the chair just touched upon those six particular cases and you gave a little more insight, so I guess we'll get that in your report. When do you think, in those three cases you referenced where there was a breach—or if you believe there was a breach—your study of those will come to a conclusion?
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
Sorry, I don't know that I mentioned three. If I did in my remarks, I apologize. I don't believe I mentioned a specific number. I don't have that number in terms of how many of the administrative reviews I have on file actually deal with a breach of the code. But I'd be pleased to come back.
In terms of the six investigations that were transferred to the office, the investigations director is currently reviewing each of them on merit to determine whether we should proceed with them, because one of the things under the Lobbying Act is that I have the ability to cease an investigation for reasons such as length of time or if it would be better dealt with under another act.
Of those six, I've received one that is recommending it should go forward in terms of tabling. So what I'd like to do over the summer is to actually work in writing up the report, so I can table it sometime in the fall, hopefully.
Liberal
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
Not as yet.
Liberal
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
Yes, they have. They were initiated under the previous regime.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay.
Moving towards the future, in your introduction you talked about the past and then the future and you said that perhaps at future meetings such as this—your reports—you'd envisioned making certain recommendations of changes. Where do you envision the most problematic area will be in regard to lobbying and the temptations that might exist around lobbying, and what particular areas? Obviously there's lobbying for legislative purposes by corporate entities. There's lobbying for contracts—any particular type of contracting. There are hundreds of millions for defence, and that seems to be increasing. Is there any particular area that you would think would require some special attention?
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
At this point, the lobbying legislation has only been there for ten months. I don't have an answer, but that is something I can look at in preparing something for when the act comes up for review. I don't have an answer for it right now.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Lobbying takes place in various types of environments, in meetings and in MP offices. It takes place at social gatherings, at dinners. What are your personal thoughts about the actual environment in which that type of activity takes place? Have you any thoughts?
It's not that we're asking for recommendations, but just in terms of your own ease, have you any thoughts as to whether there perhaps should be more stringent rules around the way that lobbying takes place?
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
The Lobbying Act, which has been in force for approximately ten months, is pretty specific as to which activities constitute lobbying. In terms of meetings, the act introduced the new requirement of monthly reporting. If communication is on a lobbying activity and has been arranged by the lobbyist, that meeting would be reported, and given the volume we are seeing coming into the registry, I think so far the Lobbying Act is showing that this new development seems to be working.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
We have certain guidelines concerning ministers and parliamentary secretaries being lobbied, when it comes to contracting and the potential for future considerations, but do you think it appropriate that at any point in the future someone who was in a decision-making capacity on contracts worth hundreds of millions at times might take on positions with those very companies that would have been lobbying them?
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
The act is very specific again as to what constitutes lobbying, and one of the things the Lobbying Act put into place was a five-year prohibition for those who are occupying designated positions.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I was trying to get at your personal thoughts; that is the act. I referred to your potentially making recommendations in the future. We have contracts that are worth huge amounts of money. We've seen that certain industries in the past have hired people from within ministers' offices, or ministers or parliamentary secretaries. Do you think that might be an area you would look at for changing what is on the books at the present time?
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
To be honest, I find that ten months is still early to see how the five-year prohibition on other activities will be. That is something I would look at, yes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Let me address the member's question that I interrupted. I can refer members to Standing Order 111(2), which says we “shall examine the qualifications and competence of the appointee or nominee to perform the duties”. Marleau and Montpetit, on page 876 in the English version, repeats this:
Questioning by members may be interrupted by the Chair, if it attempts to deal with matters considered irrelevant to the committee's inquiry
—that being the qualifications and competence.
Among the areas usually considered to be outside the scope of the committee's study are the political affiliation of the appointee or nominee, contributions to political parties and the nature of the nomination process itself.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
No, it's outside the question, because the standing order itself says that we shall examine “the qualifications and competence of the appointee or nominee to perform the duties”.
Anything that is viewed to be outside that scope.... Marleau and Monpetit, based on practice and precedent in the past, has identified political questions to be out of order.
Ms. Block.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK
Mr. Chair, was it then out of order to ask who approached Ms. Shepherd from the PMO concerning her nomination?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
I would think, based on this, that referring to the nature of the nomination process itself tends to move in that direction. Had I been a very good chair, I would have reviewed this with the committee before we started the questions. I apologize for that; I'm responsible. But now we know.
The way this thing came out, as I recall it, is that the same issue came up when Madam Stoddart was being considered for the privacy commission.
We're going to move right on.
Mr. Dreeshen, please.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Shepherd, thank you very much for your presentation this afternoon. Welcome to our committee.
I'm impressed with your resumé and your in-depth knowledge of so many of the important government departments as well as of the Lobbying Act that you've been working with. Your goal is to implement and administer the act so that we can build confidences with parliamentarians and Canadians, as you've stated, in order to ensure transparency. Integrity is the main goal of our government as well.
You said that you developed and delivered training sessions and made presentations to lobbyists, public office holders, and others. Is this part of the education mandate, or is this simply trying to get the message out to lobbyists as to what was taking place?
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
I would say it's part of the education mandate. As I indicated, I always appreciate the importance of educating as the best way to ensure compliance. The developing of these training programs is getting the message out, yes—it's talking about the lobbying legislation—but it's educating. I've seen a difference just in how how public office holders now use the legislation. They're checking the registry; they're verifying that individuals who are coming to meet with them are registered, if they should be, and on what subjects. I find that process of training and doing presentations is actually working on an educational front.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer, AB
I'll ask this question, because we've asked it of other commissioners as well.
What percentage of your budget do you think would be going towards an education mandate?
Proposed appointee for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, As an Individual
I'm not great with percentages, but I can tell you from the RPP, the report on plans and priorities for next year, that of my budget of $4.5 million a little over $1 million is being allocated to education and research.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer, AB
Do you think that in the future it's going to be higher or lower? Once the message is out, are you going to have to spend the same amount of money? What are your thoughts on that?