Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 24th, 2009

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

One or two weeks. So they'll be tabled in the committee. Thank you.

I'd like to ask a question about section 7.3. With all the access to information problems, regardless of directives, or the many policies that can be developed, all these measures will have no consequences if there is no political will or leadership to put them in place and to give them form.

Section 7.3 of the directive states: “Consequences of non-compliance with this directive can include any measure allowed by the Financial Administration Act that the Treasury Board would determine as appropriate and acceptable in the circumstances.” What do you think the consequences could be?

[Peter Bruce]

One consequence can be to require a department to take certain measures. That could be to request a program audit or evaluation. It could even be measures that are not included in the Financial Administration Act. It could mean managing a department's funds until it has corrected certain deficiencies in its programs.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

To your knowledge, has this kind of consequence been applied in the past?

[Peter Bruce]

Not in an information management context, but in other contexts.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

What example could you give us?

[Peter Bruce]

It's impossible for me to give you a specific example.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

So you currently don't have any specific examples of consequences that could be applied when a department departs from its responsibilities. All you can say is that it's possible to conduct an evaluation.

[Peter Bruce]

Yes.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

That's not a major consequence, since evaluating a program isn't correcting it.

[Peter Bruce]

When a department receives an audit request from the Treasury Board under the Financial Administration Act, I believe that it is a consequence. Going even further by managing a department's funds is quite a harsh consequence.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

When the Information Commissioner testified before us, we concluded that one of the things that should be done to properly administer this act was to make improvements in human resources and correct the lack of training for people who have to enforce the act.

What concrete measures will be taken? In the directives that we see, the official is asked to manage personnel training. There seems to be a major personnel recruitment and training problem and a lack of financial resources to hire that personnel. That takes financial resources.

With this directive, how will the situation be improved, in your opinion?

[Peter Bruce]

We also acknowledge the challenge of having competent people in place, and that's a recruitment, development and training issue. There is an organization that helps us collectively recruit information management specialists within the public service. Under the Information Management Policy, the express role of the Canada School of Public Service is to provide that training, and we are working in close cooperation with the school, Library and Archives Canada, and the Treasury Board Secretariat to ensure that the content of those programs is up to date.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I appreciate that you're all working very closely together, except that we did understand that there was such a high turnover rate among people who know the act and how to enforce it that people are unable to perform duties correctly for lack of training. And yet you seem to be saying that everything is going well for you.

[Peter Bruce]

No, I'm not saying that everything is going well. That's why we have taken measures to improve training, to establish recruitment processes, to better define the competencies required for these functions and to be able to recruit and train qualified people.

I share the Commissioner's feeling that this is an enormous challenge. We're not experiencing it solely in the information management field. We're experiencing it in the human resources management field in the public service.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Have the financial resources allocated in each department to put the directive in place been clearly defined?

[Peter Bruce]

We expect the departments to reallocate, within their own institutions, the resources to implement the policies, and that's one of the reasons why this is a plan over five years. The implementation of this change will take time because we don't have any additional funding.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Are you telling me that we don't have additional funding to implement this directive?

[Peter Bruce]

We're waiting for that to balance out. So the benefits of better information management will offset the necessary investment to introduce this better information management.

However, it is up to each of the departments to find the internal resources to carry out this implementation.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

The amount of funding by department hasn't been quantified. It is up to each of the departments to decide how much will be allocated to develop this directive.

[Peter Bruce]

Yes, exactly.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Consequently, if they don't invest more money, the situation of the Access to Information Act won't improve.

[Peter Bruce]

Personally, I believe that the departments will take this directive seriously. There are benefits in better managing information, and they will make the necessary investments. If not, we'll know it through our assessment process.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

All right. I have another question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Siksay.

I understand Madam Freeman would like to come back yet again, so she's on the list.

Mr. Siksay, please.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Bruce, in your opening statement you talked about how departments are assessed annually on their compliance with information management policy through the Treasury Board's management accountability framework. Then you went on to say that information management is included as one of 19 areas, the effectiveness of information management being one of those 19.

Can you tell me what's involved in that process, specifically with regard to information management, and how the new directive is integrated into that process?