Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2009

[Chantal Bernier]

Of course.

We have a series of concerns, but they are not concrete in the sense that we have observed some practices that are of concrete preoccupation. However, the question arises obviously from having an intensification of security, which leads to an intensification of the duty to protect privacy. I had a list of questions that I shared with the RCMP in advance of our meeting, which was on February 5. The RCMP met with us for three hours and answered all of our questions.

We asked the RCMP if they have a policy specifically for that occasion, being so exceptional, to protect privacy within the security measures they have to take. Secondly, will they train their officers? Will they ensure that the security, and therefore any intrusion into someone's privacy, not become the norm?

We will also ask them to make sure that any foreign governments will not have access to information they should not have access to. So how are they protecting Canadians' current rights to privacy within this exceptional context?

Their answer, in fact, was much more detailed, but you can see a summary in their own press release of February 4, which was very much based on the questions we had put to them.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Can you share a bit about that? I know that in this kind of large-scale event there are provisions for security that are sort of unusual and extraordinary that would go to the concerns about privacy. Can you raise some of the specific issues you might have raised or that might come to mind, given this kind of event?

[Chantal Bernier]

On the question of how they were going to manage the information, they said they would ensure that current Canadian laws would be fully, rigorously respected. Their general counsel was there and said that he assumes that responsibility.

In relation to surveillance itself, it will not go beyond what is strictly necessary. For example, one of the concerns we had was the possible overuse of closed-circuit cameras. They said they would be minimal and would be used exclusively as necessary and would be turned mostly towards prohibited zones. Hence, if a person were captured on one of those cameras, it would be because he or she had in fact trespassed. There will be, of course, cameras outside. The RCMP is in a much better place than I am to answer that, but they were saying they would make every effort to be compliant globally. We are engaged with them in a continuing dialogue on that.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

One of the issues Ms. Stoddart raised in the media was the dissembling of some of these security arrangements post-Olympics, whether the same level of security would just fall into the hands of law enforcement and be used on an ongoing basis. Was there a response specifically to that concern?

[Chantal Bernier]

They said that the equipment would be on a lease service contract. They would not retain any of the equipment, and therefore they did not feel that this was an issue, that they would not keep the equipment.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So the RCMP won't keep it, but somebody else may have it on a leased basis?

[Chantal Bernier]

They said that they will not keep it. They said that it would be a lease contract, a service contract, and that therefore past the need--the actual Olympics--they would not have that equipment any more.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

You don't have any sense about whether that security infrastructure would be disassembled and returned to a more normal sense of security at some of those venues or in those communities?

[Chantal Bernier]

I can tell you the sense that they gave us is that there would not be a legacy of increased security beyond the need occasioned by the Olympics.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Do you know if there is any provision in the budget for security at the Olympics to do any of that kind of removal or disassembling of the security infrastructure?

[Chantal Bernier]

I don't know. I have not seen their budget.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay.

The whole issue of closed-circuit television surveillance is one. I know Britain has gotten into it very heavily. The United States seems to have adopted it. Do we have any estimation of how much it's used in Canada in comparison with those other countries?

[Chantal Bernier]

We've actually funded a research project by Queen's University. I've read the draft report. It's being finalized. It will be released, I understand, before the end of March. So if you want, we would be happy to send you a copy. Obviously it's for dissemination.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

That would be great.

Do you know if there was any increased video surveillance or infrastructure installed in Ottawa during President Obama's visit, and were there any concerns that came out of that?

[Chantal Bernier]

I have no idea.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Another issue that you raised in your report and that impinges on British Columbia is the whole enhanced driver's licence project. And I know that's coming up. Actually my driver's licence is due to be renewed in March, and I did check with them and found out that the enhanced licences are available starting the second of March, I believe, in B.C. I'm just wondering where your concerns are at with that project at this point. I know it's one you've been following.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Madam Stoddart.

[Jennifer Stoddart]

Our concerns are very much those of our colleague, B.C. Information and Privacy Commissioner Loukidelis. In fact, we're working together with him and with a number of other provincial commissioners on that. We're concerned at various levels. We continue to be concerned about access to the information. When a Canadian crosses the border, how much information is transferred with him or her? We have concerns about the technology and the extent to which the information can be captured by those other than border service agents. We are concerned about the extent of background checks that go into the issuing of one of these enhanced driver's licences, about how this links into other security issues that we may not know about.

So we're certainly watching this with great interest. We've made some suggestions to the Canadian government in our response on a privacy impact assessment, and we continue to talk about this on an ongoing basis, as the results of the trial will come in soon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Mrs. Block, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to take it back to some of the comments that Ms. Freeman had made, or questions that she'd asked. You made the comment that it is not your job to protect the information but to ensure that different organizations are complying with legislation. A few months ago I would have considered myself an average Canadian. If average Canadians knew what you knew about privacy laws and how they are being enforced to protect Canadians, do you think they would be satisfied with how their privacy is being protected? And based on your answer, could you give us some examples of why or why not?

[Jennifer Stoddart]

I in fact get a lot of information from the same sources as other Canadians. I may just get specialized information a little sooner from some of the studies that we do. We know that Canadians are very concerned about how their personal information is handled. They're concerned about security. They're concerned about transborder data flows, that information may go to a country that has lower data standards and so on. So that's a constant theme that comes up again and again.

Could you just repeat the second part of your question?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Do you think Canadians would be satisfied with how their privacy is being protected right now, here in Canada, based on whether they know what you know?

[Jennifer Stoddart]

No, I think with what they know now, they're concerned and they're not satisfied with how their personal information is protected. One indicator of that is the tremendous interest in recent years in the work of my office, both in the public and the private sector.

Parents are worried about their children's privacy because the children spend all their time online now. We've got eight million Canadians on Facebook, and it's not clear where their information is going once it's on Facebook. That's one of our ongoing investigations. People are worried about their personal information being stolen. ID theft is rampant, unfortunately. I've mentioned ID theft issues before this committee in the past and have ongoing recommendations that we amend the Criminal Code and that we pass anti-spam legislation.

Canadians who can't afford expensive software updating packages are exposed to a lot of spam. Just on my government computer, I'm told that 98% or 99% of the e-mail we get is spam. The Government of Canada can afford pretty sophisticated spam filters, but it shows you the extent of the global problem. We're the only one of the G-8 countries that has no anti-spam legislation.

So I think Canadians are pretty realistic that they don't have all the privacy protection they need.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you.

I have a follow-up question based on the report we received. Do you travel to other countries in your role as Privacy Commissioner?

[Jennifer Stoddart]

Yes, I do.