Evidence of meeting #33 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was environment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bob Hamilton  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
Shelley Emmerson  Manager, Access to Information and Privacy, Department of the Environment
Pierre Bernier  Director General, Corporate Secretariat, Department of the Environment
Jennifer Stoddart  Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

It is 3:30 and I will call the meeting to order. I want to extend to everyone a warm welcome. Bienvenue à tous.

This afternoon, this meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics has been called pursuant to the Standing Orders. We are dealing with the follow-up on the Information Commissioner's report card.

We are pleased to have with us today, from the Department of the Environment, Mr. Bob Hamilton, associate deputy minister. He is accompanied by Mr. Pierre Bernier, director general of the corporate secretariat, and Shelley Emmerson, the manager for access to information and privacy.

The committee has allocated an hour and a half to this particular issue. Let me say a few words in opening, on behalf of the committee.

As I indicated, this is a follow-up to the report tabled by the Information Commissioner of Canada, which was entitled “Out of Time, 2008-2009 Report Cards, Systemic Issues Affecting Access to Information in Canada”.

The report, which was very extensive, very lengthy, and very comprehensive, graded various departments within the Government of Canada as to their compliance with the Access to Information Act. The report unfortunately identifies a number of systemic problems with various departments, which are basically failing Canadians in providing timely information in accordance with the legislation.

According to the report of the Information Commissioner, the reasons for this failure include, among other things, lack of leadership, inappropriate use of time extensions, time-consuming consultations, insufficient resources, deficiencies in record management, and the whole issue regarding insufficient or improper delegation.

The Information Commissioner in this report graded all 24 federal departments. Five departments received a rating of 1 out of 5, or an F grade. Those departments were Natural Resources Canada, CIDA, Correctional Services Canada, Canadian Heritage, and the Department of the Environment.

Unfortunately, the Department of Foreign Affairs received a rate of zero, which the commissioner classified as a red alert rating.

The committee considers this a very serious issue. As a result, it decided to call before it both officials from the Department of the Environment and officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs, who will be appearing next week.

We're pleased that the associate deputy minister is here. We're pleased that the other officials are here. We're going to now ask for opening remarks.

The floor is yours, Mr. Hamilton.

3:30 p.m.

Bob Hamilton Associate Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. As you mentioned, I am the associate deputy minister at Environment Canada. I am here with two of the key people in the department working on the access to information area: Pierre Bernier, who is the coordinator of our access to information area; and Shelley Emmerson, who is the manager of our access to information office. I will describe in a minute how we all fit into the organization.

We welcome the opportunity to be here today to provide you with some information on how we're following up on the report card from the Information Commissioner and to talk a little bit about the progress we've seen and the progress that we hope to continue to see. Certainly there's more work to be done, but we believe we have put in place some mechanisms that have started to show some progress already.

I should say at the outset that we believe at Environment Canada that the Access to Information Act is an important vehicle by which we can get information out to the Canadian public on government operations and a way by which people can hold us to account. We are strongly committed to access to information and its principles of openness, transparency, and accountability.

Despite the fact that we have experienced a few challenges over the last few years, which I'll outline in a minute, we remain committed to providing that kind of access to records, subject to the very limited special exceptions outlined in the act.

I'll just give you a couple of points of context. At Environment Canada we are consistently among the top 10 institutions in terms of number of requests received per year. We receive a lot of requests to deal with, so there's obviously a workload issue.

In the last five years we have seen that workload increase by about 10% in the number of requests on average every year and on average by about 40% in the number of pages reviewed. It's a big volume, and it's a volume that's been growing. We've had to adapt to that.

That has continued this year. In the statistics we've pulled together at Environment Canada, we've seen a 33% increase in the number of requests this year and a 61% increase in the number of pages reviewed.

We have to find ways to deal with that large and growing workload, in order that we can fulfill our responsibilities under the act.

The access to information office is situated in the corporate secretariat. It currently has 15 employees responsible for processing records, and we're continuing to staff positions to increase that complement. I'll come back to that staffing issue in a moment.

Environment Canada acknowledges the importance of establishing clear accountabilities for access to information issues. The department follows the Treasury Board best practices on delegation of authority. That's why it has delegated full authority to Mr. Bernier and Ms. Emmerson.

Now let me just turn to the report card briefly and talk a little bit about what the report card told us, and how we've responded.

The report highlighted the challenges that were faced by Environment Canada during that time. There was really a range of things that contributed to the poor grade we received.

First, as I mentioned, is the workload we had, and that was acknowledged in the report, that it had been growing. Second, within the department we actually had a fairly significant reorganization, which created several new branches and had an impact on our records retrieval process. So that was something that was self-inflected, if you like, but it was something that contributed to our difficulty in that 2008-09 year that was examined. At the same time during that period, for a short period of time we were processing requests on behalf of Parks Canada, so we were actually taking on additional requests during that year than would normally be in the Environment Canada domain. And finally—and this is one I'll come back to—we had a number of experienced people leave our ATIP office, so we were very short staffed during that time.

We had a heavy workload, we were undergoing a reorganization, we had extra files from Parks Canada, and we had a number of experienced ATIP people leave. So there was a combination of events there that really produced, obviously, the results the commissioner outlined and gave us some things to work on.

I'll come back on the issue of qualified staff, because that's an issue we face, and it continues to challenge us at the department. And it's not unique to the Department of Environment; it's something we see elsewhere, but it is something we're trying to address, and it's probably one of the more significant issues we face.

On the basis of that analysis and information, the commissioner made four recommendations. First was that the deputy minister should allocate sufficient resources to this activity in order to ensure a full access to information staffing complement. Second, we should develop a clear plan to tackle the backlog of access requests, because we had built up, through this period, a backlog of requests that had not been dealt with. And as you know, as that accumulates and you keep getting new ones coming in the door...we need to find ways to deal with that backlog, and the commissioner gave us that recommendation. Next was that we identify and implement measures of record management systems to ensure quicker searches to enable us to meet the timelines, and that we notify the Office of the Information Commissioner of all the extensions that we take for more than 30 days.

We have developed an institutional action plan to address each of these recommendations, and I'm happy to report that the department has made progress in each of the areas identified in the report. I will provide you with several examples of the progress made during my presentation.

In 2008, in response to these, we began developing a departmental ATIP professional development program, which is really a program we put in place to try to get qualified personnel in the access to information area. We were having difficulty recruiting and retaining these people and we needed to develop a good succession plan, so we instituted this program. It's meant to help us bring people into the access to information area, make it a better place for them to be so that they stay with us, and provide some continuity of succession going forward.

Obviously it takes a little time to set it up and put it into the institution, but we're quite confident that in the long run we have to do this kind of thing to be able to get qualified people to work in this area. It's extremely difficult to deal with backlog and new requests coming in if you have a shortage of qualified people or if they're leaving continually.

We're already seeing some signs of success. We've got the second round of recruitment under way and we're starting to see people building their knowledge, not only of the Access to Information Act and how one has to deal with that, but also, importantly, of the department. In this area you have to know the rules, obviously, and how to process that, but you also have to gain a knowledge of the department. We're starting to see that.

The second thing is that we've committed to a plan of trying to deal with the backlog of requests. We've identified those as requiring action, even though we're having some difficulty staffing up to full complement. We have used contractors to try to help us through this because we recognize that we just have to beat down that backlog in order to deal adequately with the flow that's coming in. It's obviously a balance. We can't focus just on the backlog and ignore the ones coming in; similarly, we can't do just the ones coming in and ignore the backlog. We've tried to put some attention on trying to get rid of that backlog over time.

We have made some progress. We've reduced our overall backlog by 28% this year, and we've reduced the backlog of some of our oldest files by over 50%. We are seeing signs of progress, but as in all of these areas, there is more work to be done.

We have instituted information management and ATIP awareness and training to try to sensitize not just the ATIP specialists but also people more generally in the department about how one should manage records and what one needs to do to comply with the requirements of ATIP. We have seen some improvement in the time required to retrieve records. We've gone from an average of 26 days down to 18 days, and our target is to get down to 13 days. We're seeing some signs; we've got farther to go, but in this key element of retrieval of records, we are seeing some signs of life.

It's also allowed us to complete more requests within a 30-day timeframe. In 2008-09 we completed 62% of requests within that timeframe; we're now up to 72% of requests. Hopefully, as I say, we're going to have continued improvement.

The other thing I'd say is that we recognize that this requires leadership from the top, and both the deputy minister and I are taking active roles in trying to ensure that we make progress. Reports on the statistics that we've generated on how we're doing are presented quarterly to the senior management team. The deputy minister and I review those reports, and we are closely watching how our progress is going. We know it's challenging, but we know that we have instituted an action plan. We're seeing some signs of progress and we're looking for more over time.

In terms of our response times, in 2008-09 the average completion time was 97 days. We've seen that come down now to 77 days. Obviously there's room for improvement there, but we are watching it move in the right direction.

We've also strengthened our internal administrative procedures to ensure that the Information Commissioner gets notification of all extensions of more than 30 days.

We have been an active participant interdepartmentally to try to learn from the best practices of other departments. We try to lead through some of our best practices, but we also want to learn what's worked well in other places, so we're always on the lookout to try to pick up what others may be doing well that we can mimic or modify somewhat to work in the Environment Canada context.

Again, we're committed to continuing our efforts. I think you've heard me say that coming out of the commissioner's report, we know there's more work to be done, but we believe we've got a good action plan in place to make progress. We've seen some signs of that progress, and we're on the lookout and closely monitoring for further improvements as we go forward.

With that, I'll end my remarks.

Mr. Bernier, Ms. Emmerson, and I would be happy to take any questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Hamilton.

We'll start the first seven-minute round. Mr. Easter, you have seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, folks, and thank you for your presentation.

There's no question that the Information Commissioner wasn't happy with Environment Canada's performance, and she gave you an F. I want to follow up on that, and hopefully I'll have time.

The area I want to delve into first is whether there is any political influence, or potential for it, over access to information requests within the department. I think you are well aware that last spring it was an extremely hot topic at this committee. There was an article in the Hill Times talking about cabinet ministers' offices being under orders to pressure bureaucrats to pare down the amount of information released under access to information. In fact, it was noted at this committee that the former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, Mr. Christian Paradis, and his former staffer, Sebastien Togneri, did admit to some political interference over access to information, or at least Mr. Togneri did.

Has anyone on your staff ever had discussions with ministerial exempt staffers about the content or the quality of information to be released by Environment Canada on access requests?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Bob Hamilton

Thank you.

No, that has not been an issue at Environment Canada. We have a very straightforward process that both Pierre and Shelley manage. When we receive a request, it follows a very set path, and they are delegated to determine what should go out over what timeframe.

We do have a system of making the minister's office aware of files, but it's not anything that has ever contributed in any way to a slowdown or to any change in what we release.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Have there ever been negotiations with ministerial exempt staffers on content or on whether the full package should be released, or anything of that nature?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

That hasn't happened at Environment Canada. Okay.

There have been no suggestions, then, by exempt staffers that information going out is too extensive--no requests to take something out or to change it in any fashion?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Bob Hamilton

No. That's correct. It's just an information provision.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Could you give us a quick explanation, then, Shelley, of the process you follow? Certainly the impression in this town is that there has been pressure by the PMO to restrict information getting out there, and sometimes the department can get blamed for delays when the delays may be from a higher body. What process do you follow to ensure that there isn't ministerial influence?

Having been a minister myself, I understand the need for a minister to be notified--not to change the request in any way, but to be notified. The minister absolutely must and should have a heads-up on a request so that he or she is not blindsided, and we understand that, but the experience at Public Works and Government Services was not a good one, and it's a matter of another committee discussing what potential witnesses we can have before committees as a result of that experience.

Shelley, what's the process you follow to prevent that from happening?

3:45 p.m.

Shelley Emmerson Manager, Access to Information and Privacy, Department of the Environment

When a file is ready to circulate for approval, a duplicate package of the materials that are going to be released is provided concurrently to the minister's office and to our communications branch, for communication purposes only.

Once it comes time to release the materials, we provide a 24-hour advisory that the materials are being released. We don't wait for the minister's office or for our communications area to respond. We provide them with a 24-hour advisory and the materials are released.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Once the request comes in, the information is gathered. It's prepared for release. You give the minister's office and others 24 hours' notice that it's going out.

That's basically the heads-up. Am I correct?

3:45 p.m.

Manager, Access to Information and Privacy, Department of the Environment

Shelley Emmerson

We give them a copy of the release package when it's going for approval; it might be a little longer than 24 hours. However, 24 hours prior to the release date of the request we do send out our advisory.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you.

Coming back to your summary, Mr. Hamilton, and some of the work you're doing to get the backlog down and the requests caught up, you mentioned that you're using contractors. Why?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Bob Hamilton

As I mentioned, one of the challenges we have is finding qualified people to work in the access to information area. And as I said, it's not something that's unique to Environment Canada. We experienced quite a dip in our staffing levels in the 2008-09 year, which is being looked at here. We have difficulty both attracting and retaining these kinds of people; there's a shortage of them, if you like.

We've instituted this development program to help us train qualified people, but while that's building up, rather than have the backlog continue to grow, we have used consultants to supplement for the people we can't hire, if I can put it that way, to help us deal with the backlog.

Our hope is that over the coming months and years--we'll see how long it takes--we'll have full staffing, either with people we've been able to attract to the department or with people we've built up through this program.

We have to get on top of this backlog, and we felt this was the only way we could do it in the near term.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Easter.

Monsieur Bigras, sept minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the Deputy Minister and the Environment Canada officials for appearing today and for presenting their brief.

On page 2 of the brief, you state the following: “Environment Canada is strongly committed to access to information and its principles of openness, transparency and accountability.” I want to focus on the words “transparency” and “accountability.” Those two words are emphasized. You have principles and you ensure that they are met.

Section 72 of the Access to Information Act states the following:

The head of every government institution shall prepare for submission to Parliament an annual report on the administration of this Act within the institution [...]

It seems that Environment Canada doesn't publish online its annual report to Parliament on the administration of the Access to Information Act.

Do you think that, despite failing to post the report on your website, you are meeting the transparency and accountability principles? Wouldn't publishing the report be the least you could do? First, I want to know whether you have published the report online. If not, do you intend to do so?

3:50 p.m.

Pierre Bernier Director General, Corporate Secretariat, Department of the Environment

No, we have not published it, but there is absolutely no reason for us not to. The report has been submitted to Parliament, which means that it's public. We have no objection to posting it online.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Did you know that you are in violation of section 72 of the Access to Information Act?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Corporate Secretariat, Department of the Environment

Pierre Bernier

The report has been submitted to Parliament.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Yes, but it's not online. Do you feel that not posting the report online demonstrates transparency?

No? Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Corporate Secretariat, Department of the Environment

Pierre Bernier

I won't comment on this. I feel that we have met our transparency principle by submitting the report to Parliament.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

But I think that...

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Corporate Secretariat, Department of the Environment

Pierre Bernier

Publishing the report online is an approach we could adopt in the future. We have no objection to doing that.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Okay.