Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2010

[Bob Hamilton]

No. Even if we put more money on it, there is not the capacity out there for us to draw from. We have to grow some more capacity.

We're confident that if we had resources of 20 people, we could make significant progress on this and deal with it, but we've got to find a way to get senior people who are qualified in this area. That's why we're focusing on the development plan.

We are trying to extract every efficiency out of the system that we can. We are improving our records management. Records management is a key part of this as well, because making sure you have a system that's keeping the records in a more easily accessible way can really cut down your retrieval time.

The last point you made was that sometimes we do good things, and sometimes not so good, in terms of making information available so that somebody doesn't have to put through an access to information request for it--but even there, although the information may be available, sometimes people don't know about it. We have to look at a multi-faceted way of trying to tackle this problem. That's what we're doing. We're hoping for some good short-term results, but we're also building a strong foundation to make sure we have something that will be solid and will last, because I don't see this problem getting any easier over time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Go ahead, Mr. Albrecht, for five minutes.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks go to you, Mr. Hamilton, and to your colleagues for being here today.

I'm certainly encouraged by the commitment you've made in your public statements here and also in the steps you've outlined concerning improvements. You've done a great job of outlining the challenges you face.

The first one that you outlined is the volume. That alone to me is overwhelming—a 61% increase in the number of pages being reviewed. None of us here would be able to survive a 61% inflation rate, so I think it's understandable that you've had a major challenge there. But if you add to that the reorganization, the Parks Canada requests, and also the departure of many of your ATIP officers, there's no question that you have faced severe challenges.

I want to come back for a moment to the ATIP professional development program that you spoke of, and the shortage of staff, training of ATIP workers, the need for them to have an in-depth knowledge of your department. I think all of us understand that, but for me the part that is difficult to understand is that, if I have understood it, there's only one university providing some kind of ground-level training program for workers in this field.

I would ask two things. One is, are there other universities that would plan to start these kinds of programs, or is it possibly to your advantage to do training that is specific to the department so that you have the qualities that are needed to meet the demands of your unique situation?

[Bob Hamilton]

I'll let Pierre elaborate on what's out there, but we see the need in the current environment to have a specific training program for our department. As we mentioned earlier, there's a common element of knowing what the Access to Information Act is, all of the responsibilities, etc. You could give that to any department and it would be common across them. But as Pierre said, we can't lose sight of the importance of knowing how the department works, for those people too. You can waste a lot of time, if somebody doesn't know how the department works, searching around. You can eat up probably your whole 30 days. That's an exaggeration, but you can certainly spend a lot of time doing that.

So it's a combination of those two that tells us that we need a program like this, certainly at the moment.

Maybe Pierre can elaborate on what other things are out there on the horizon, if any.

[Pierre Bernier]

Actually, Shelley would be best placed to answer that question.

[Shelley Emmerson]

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any other universities that have courses on access to information. The University of Alberta course is a few years old now, and we're seeing people starting to graduate from the course. Certainly my staff have taken training through the University of Alberta.

But so much of the training that's required for access to information officers is based on hands-on work and actually knowing what to do with a document when you receive it. That's why we feel the developmental program is a good step: we're providing in-depth mentoring to our employees, and our recruits through the program have all indicated that they're very happy with the mentoring they're receiving, the hands-on mentoring.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I'd like to follow up, then, with Ms. Emmerson.

You outlined very carefully and well the process that you follow when an ATIP request is made. I'm not going to relist all the steps, but could you identify within those you outlined—about six or seven steps—at what point the greatest delay or backlog is likely to occur?

[Shelley Emmerson]

What I would say is that there are a number of areas in which there could be delays. Retrieval is one of the areas that, during the time of the commissioner's report in 2008 and 2009, was a real challenge for us. Consultations can also be a challenge. We may think we've asked for an appropriate extension, but it's always dependent upon the workload in another department.

In addition, there's just the volume of material that might be coming through our office, so there are capacity issues within our office. If we receive 10 boxes of material in response to a request, it could also delay the file.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I want to point out that in spite of the fact that the environment department got an F on its report, they were held up as a model by the Information Commissioner in relation to the initiatives on open government. The data sets of material that are made available to the public were I think a great stride forward.

It's difficult for me to understand how on the one hand your department is held out as a model related to the release of these data sets, and on the other hand we're having difficulty achieving a good mark on the release of access to information requests. I understand, because of the problems you've outlined, about the volume and some of the other challenges, but could you help me understand how you've done so well on the open government initiative?

[Bob Hamilton]

I think they're related, but they're two different issues as well. We have had some success in taking some of the information that we've had and looking for ways to get it out into the public domain. This has the effect, to the extent that people know about it, of reducing the number of requests that come in for that information. It's much easier for us if we can just put it out, and not have somebody ask for it so that we then go through the process of retrieving files, assessing them, etc.

It's possible, I think, to do well on that side of publishing information but still experience the challenges we have when people have to come to us for the type of information that maybe we can't put on the website, or haven't yet. I think it's possible to have that problem as well as some successes with the data on the website.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

This is just a 10-second follow-up. Is it possible that the greater degree of openness will reduce the number of requests for ATIP down the road, so that you are actually solving your problem?

[Bob Hamilton]

Directionally, I think I would agree with that. As to how much, I don't know. It depends on the type of information. You can't put everything out there, and there will always be certain things that will have to come in through the request route. My bet is that there is an intersection of some things that could be put in the public domain that would help reduce the requests for information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Albrecht.

Monsieur Bouchard.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank Ms. Emmerson, the deputy minister and Mr. Bernier for being here this afternoon.

Deputy Minister, your presentation has brought two points to my attention. First, you professed your faith in the service of access to information, which you consider to be an important vehicle for providing information to Canadians. Second, you said that there has been a considerable increase in the number of Canadians, organizations, media and MPs who are taking advantage of the service.

Have you wondered why there has been such an increase? Why has there been such a significant increase?

[Bob Hamilton]

I guess there are several reasons for the increase in the number of cases. I think that, over the last few years, Canadians have become more interested in the environment, especially last year, when the Copenhagen Conference, among others, was held.

I think that people are more interested in environmental issues. I don't know how this shift has affected other departments, but I assume that they have all experienced a fairly similar increase in demand. We have certainly noted an increase over the last few years.

Could you give us a reason or two for this shift, Mr. Bernier?

[Pierre Bernier]

Our data shows that Canadians use the tool provided under the Access to Information Act a lot more. So, they are exercising their right.

In addition, the procedure is simpler now. There has been an increase in use owing to the popularization of e-mail requests. Previously, all the requests we received were sent by mail. Now, most of the requests are submitted by e-mail. Fees are also paid electronically. All those factors have contributed to the increase in the demand. As Mr. Hamilton said, people are also more interested in subjects that, in our case, are related to the environment.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

I'm not sure if my question is for Ms. Emmerson or Mr. Bernier. How do you classify the access to information requests?

I assume that the media probably want to make use of the access to information service, as do parliamentarians. I use it, so I imagine that others, like the public and the organizations, must also use it.

Do you have a chart that shows what percentage of the requests parliamentarians, for example, account for, or what percentage the media account for. I would like to get more information on this subject.

[Pierre Bernier]

Yes, we do have statistics on this.

By the way, the categories we have to use in our annual report are established by the Treasury Board. I have the percentages the various categories have accounted for so far this year. I apologize, but I only have the terms for you in English.

Academy accounts for 1%; business accounts for 69%; organizations, NGOs and others, account for 11%; the media account for 13%; and the public accounts for 6%. We don't have a separate category for parliamentarians.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Are MPs seen as part of the business community?

[Pierre Bernier]

Ms. Emmerson had better answer that question, as I am not sure.

Which category are the MPs in?

[Shelley Emmerson]

I believe it would be “organization”. I would have to check on that to be certain.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Okay. I would like to get an answer to this question eventually.

[Pierre Bernier]

Yes, absolutely.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

I have an example to run by you. Say I submit a request to the access to information section of the Department of the Environment and I receive an English document.

Can I ask you to send me a French copy, to have the document translated? Is there a procedure to follow or, if it's a document that only exists in English, should I just settle for what I received? What's the procedure to follow in that case?

[Pierre Bernier]

You won't be told to just settle for what was sent to you because the Access to Information Act entitles Canadians to existing governmental documents. So, if the document is available in both languages, it will be provided in both.