Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2010

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Of course.

Let's stay with the question of the legality and legitimacy of this.

You interpreted this based on the letter of the law, saying that it wasn't corruption since, in your opinion, he had not bribed you and you had refused.

Were you afraid of Mr. Vaillancourt?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

There is no doubt that had there been a public confrontation, I would have been afraid of him, in a way. I would not have been afraid that he would have me killed or that something would happen involving organized crime. When it comes to organized crime, I was very well protected.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

What do you mean by that?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

At one point, I had five bodyguards; I had them in front of my house and in front of my cottage.

In any case, I was certain he would do everything in his power to publicly discredit me, that not only would he deny it, but he would try to destroy my credibility, make trouble for me, question my former clients, and draw attention to the fact that I defended criminals. Mind you, I also defended police officers.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

There is one part of your argument that I find weak, if you'll allow me the term. You refused money; that's great. But you are from a community where you know all about how low some people can stoop, and yet you said nothing to people in your entourage.

Were you also the regional minister at the time?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I was later, when—

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

You'll see what I'm driving at. You talked to several of your colleagues. At one point, did you tell them to be careful and not get involved in this?

There is only one weak link in this whole affair. You did what you had to do. Indeed, as I said right at the beginning, there is no evidence that would prompt me to doubt your word. However, you sent him letters of thanks and congratulations, because you nevertheless wanted to work with Mr. Vaillancourt, since you were both elected representatives.

But at some point, did you not feel a certain discomfort? Mr. Chevrette was the Minister of Municipal Affairs, with all that entails. I know him, I know his temperament, because he is my cousin. Did you talk to one another?

By the way, I would just like to state for the media that he is a distant cousin.

[A voice]

He didn't turn out so well, if you ask me.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Well, I turned out well. Some people have other flaws, but that's their problem.

But let's come back to serious matters. Because this is in fact a serious matter: we're talking about two reputations being pitted one against the other, of a situation where it looks as though everyone is being put in the same basket.

With your fellow ministers, did you not discuss the possibility that if one of you could not handle it, this could be referred to the municipal level? Did you not confide in anyone at the ministerial level or among your colleagues?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

No. I did not even talk to my wife about it. At least, that's what I thought. However, once this information became public, my wife told me that I had talked about it one evening when her sister Ginette and her husband were there, along with my daughter. It was a family meal washed down with plenty of wine. I didn't drive, but I did mention that.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

At least it was red wine.

[A voice]

Ah, ah!

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

It's true that I never talked about it. Maybe I applied the principles I had learned in the navy, where you only revealed confidential information

to “only those who need to know”.

In my case, I knew that if I didn't want this to come back and bite me or have a public confrontation with Mayor Vaillancourt, I had to remain silent. The less I talked about it, the less chance there was of that happening.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

As you know, there are two techniques: the one used in judo and the one used in karate. In karate, you go after each other at the risk of taking one on the chin. In judo, you use the other guy's strength and do things in a more roundabout way.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I preferred to stay out of the ring.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

At that point, would it not have been possible to put Guy Chevrette in the ring, he being a fighter? Couldn't something have been done along those lines through the Ministry of Municipal Affairs?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

But what? We did the investigation. And I know what is deemed to be evidence. I already knew enough about police work to know that there wouldn't be any more.

I may have made a mistake, but that is something we will never know.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

No, you've been clear. But since we have you here, we may as well ask you all these questions.

Seventeen years later—I still can't get over the fact that we're here—do you have any regrets? If you had known, would you have done things differently?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

No.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Fine; thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

Mr. Blaney, for five minutes.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Ménard, in your letter dated January 9, 2002, you say the following: “One thing is certain, the image that will always remain with me is of an extremely capable man. Congratulations to you, Mayor of Laval, hoping that you consider me a close friend.”

Would an extremely capable man be offering brown envelopes to candidates, Mr. Ménard?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Vaillancourt was a very capable mayor. A brown envelope has nothing to do with his skills as a mayor. We did a lot of things together in Laval.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Do you consider honesty to be an important value for an elected official, Mr. Ménard?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Of course. That's why I always avoided discussing it with him.