Evidence of meeting #36 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Thank you, Mr. Ménard. I apologize for interrupting you, but I only have a few minutes left.
It is clear to me that when you were offered money in that manner—in a brown envelope—17 years ago, you were a victim.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Fine, it was white. I'd say this is a little like my definition of “bribe”: for me it's a brown envelope because this was money that didn't belong there, that was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
You were a victim. Over the 17 years that followed this episode, you were Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Did you ever, at any time, say that these kinds of incidents should be disclosed? By not doing so, are you not aiding and abetting a cancer that is eating away at Quebec society—namely, corruption?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Perhaps the legislation needs to be changed. Some people have suggested making even an attempt to bribe an official an offence. But even if that had been an offence, it would still have been my word against his.
Good laws are laws that create the conditions which will encourage people to stay honest. The fact remains, however, that the public good depends on people's individual honesty when they are confronted with this kind of situation. I was confronted with it and I said no.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Talking about individual honesty, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney came here to testify. I'm sure you remember; you were there. He acknowledged that he had shown poor judgment. You said that what intrigued you was that it had taken him so long to realize he had made such an error of judgment.
In what year did you realize that this had been an error of judgment? Are you telling us this afternoon that not disclosing this incident for 17 years was not an error, in your opinion?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I was convinced at the time, and still am, that this was the best course of action for me, and I explained why.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I must protest. I am extremely disappointed to see our Conservative colleagues trying to get Mr. Ménard to say that he committed a crime or an offence. That is precisely what you are constantly implying by your questions.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
You show no rigour, but you want other people to do you that courtesy.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
The fact is, Mr. Ménard, that you clearly indicated no crime or offence had been committed.
Could you tell our Conservative colleagues once again whether, by not disclosing what occurred at the time, you were guilty of a crime or an offence?
Bloc
Bloc
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In my opinion, no crime was committed. Journalists are the ones talking about attempted bribery. It's clear to me that they are skipping over a few steps. However, from a legal standpoint, this was not attempted bribery.
I very much had the feeling, both while this was occurring and after the fact, that it was a way of bringing me into a group that I would have been forced to deal with sooner or later. It was essential that I say no immediately. As soon as I said no, there was no longer any question of this being an offence, because the attempt had failed.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
And yet Conservative members are suggesting that you should have disclosed an allegedly illegal action. I'd like you to tell us once again whether or not a crime or offence was committed.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I still believe that no crime was committed. First of all, I was only a candidate; I was not an elected official. Furthermore, he was asking for nothing in return for what was on offer. It was only an attempt to violate the Election Act.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
So, at the time, neither bribery nor a violation of any act was involved.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
It may sound silly, and I understand that people may have trouble with this idea. That does not mean it wasn't serious. When you start testing someone, you begin with something that isn't illegal, hoping that one day you can go even further, to see whether he may be prepared to move on to something else. That was the way I saw it.
Had I accepted, I would have committed an office.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
If you had accepted the envelope, what would that have meant?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I would have been guilty of an offence under the Election Act.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
And what was the consequence of refusing the envelope?
