Evidence of meeting #36 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Did you consult the Parti Québécois when this happened, when you refused that money?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
No, because I felt that the fewer people who knew about this, the less likely it was that the information would come out, and the less likely it was that I would have to prove my credibility in relation to that of the mayor of Laval.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
So, you never heard about other people accepting money, that basically that was the culture and that it was normal for that sort of thing to happen? You never heard anything like that?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Never. I was very surprised to see that this was happening. Obviously, I saw the line that was being drawn—it was presented as a contribution to my election fund. Had I accepted, I would have been an accessory to a minor offence which is not a crime, but I would have put the message out that I was open to that sort of thing.
I had been thinking about going into politics for a long time, like you perhaps. I had wanted to be in politics since the 1950s.
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
At the time, corruption was rampant, and not just in Quebec. It was everywhere: in Canada, the United States and around the world. I always thought to myself that if I ever went into politics, I would refuse to get involved in that kind of thing. You have to refuse the first time it happens. And that's why my immediate reaction was to refuse when he took out the money. I obviously wanted to adhere to the Election Act, and my response was immediate. I asked him what he was doing.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Of course, there are several ridings in the Laval region. You were a star candidate, and you became a minister. Did any other candidates come to see you saying that they had been offered money? Did you hear anything like that?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Never, and I was very surprised by this. Absolutely no one had said anything like that. Laval had a certain reputation, but not in that regard. It was more with respect to the way bids were handled and contracts were awarded and there had been all kinds of allegations in the newspapers, but nothing had ever been proven.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Subsequently, when you were either a candidate or MNA, were you offered money?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
No, sometimes people would offer us cash, but we refused. We would tell them they had to make the cheque out to the association, not to the candidate, and that their names would be made public.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
When they offered you money, it was for your funding campaign—not to have your ear, correct?
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Do you think that the people who offered you money and to whom you explained that they had to write a cheque rather than giving you cash were doing that honestly, just to help you with your funding campaign?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Yes, I took pride in thinking that it was possibly because they felt I was a good candidate.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
That may have been the case at the provincial level; we'll see about that at the federal level.
Mr. Ménard, how do you react when someone like Richard Le Hir states quite candidly that he accepted $13,000, that the money was used to buy the chicken, that the Parti Québécois was aware of this and that they were five or six other candidates who were going to become ministers and had received the same offer?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I've never heard about any of that. Had I heard about that, I would certainly have spoken out against it.
In my opinion, the two most important pieces of legislation that we owe to Mr. René Lévesque—for whom I have tremendous admiration—are the bill on the French language, which became Bill 101, and the Election Act. I felt that the legislation was well drafted. It was Mr. Burns who drafted it. And that was because Mr. Lévesque had understood that election funds were a source of undue influence over elected representatives. That is why the amounts were reduced and a process was put in place.
It was because of those two cases that I was prompted to react the way I did. First of all, I had already told myself that I would refuse the first time that this happened and that was the first time. I believe it was the last as well.
Second, I respected the law and wanted to abide by it.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
You contributed to Project Carcajou because you were minister at the time. You are a criminal lawyer.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
No, I mean that you launched it. Your response was to combat organized crime. At one point when you were minister, were you not tempted to go even further and investigate things in Laval, since you had been offered money? You said earlier that you had heard about certain goings-on in Laval. Weren't you tempted to do that?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
There are two points to be made there. With respect to the offence itself, there was no other evidence. I knew something about evidence. I'm a lawyer and I have spent my career adducing evidence, as well as challenging it and assessing it. I even taught courses at university on evidence under the criminal law. I clearly understood that it would be impossible to secure anything more.
I forgot your other question.