Evidence of meeting #37 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was moore.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Moore  Chef Information Officer, Information Technology, City of Edmonton
Michael Mulley  Web programmer, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I will now call the meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone. Bienvenue à tous.

This meeting is called pursuant to the Standing Orders, and it deals with our ongoing study into open government.

The committee is very pleased to have before us today two witnesses. First of all, we have with us in person Mr. Michael Mulley from Montreal. He's a web programmer, but he's also the developer and owner of that website, which is probably familiar to most of us, entitled openparliament.ca. He certainly has dealt with open government data and he's aware of the opportunities and challenges of which it avails itself.

We have, through video teleconference, Mr. Chris Moore. Mr. Moore is the chief information officer with the City of Edmonton, and he can bring to us the perspective of a municipality in dealing with the release and dissemination of collected data.

What I plan to do is go until five o'clock with our two witnesses, and then we will go in camera. The committee has to deal with certain budgetary items. Also I would like to review and approve, if possible, the report that has been prepared under the Google study.

First of all, I want to check whether the teleconferencing is working okay.

Mr. Moore, can you hear me okay?

3:30 p.m.

Chris Moore Chef Information Officer, Information Technology, City of Edmonton

Yes, absolutely. Can you hear me as well?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I can hear you as well.

Thank you very much for your assistance and for your appearance via Edmonton.

We'll call upon opening comments. I'm going to start with you, Mr. Mulley.

Mr. Mulley, welcome to the committee. I understand this is your first time before a parliamentary committee.

3:30 p.m.

Michael Mulley Web programmer, As an Individual

Absolutely.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We're looking forward to hearing your remarks. Go ahead.

3:30 p.m.

Web programmer, As an Individual

Michael Mulley

Thank you very much.

I want to thank you for inviting me here. I'm very pleased that Parliament is conducting this study and I am honoured to contribute to it.

I'm here because about six months ago I launched a site called openparliament.ca. I know that some of you have seen it and have said nice things about it, which I appreciate very much. But for those of you who aren't aware of it, it's a site that tries to make it easier to keep tabs on some of the things that are going on in the House and tries to make such things as Hansard a little more engaging and useful. You all have pages on the site that show anything you've said recently on the House floor, along with media coverage, votes, any legislation you've introduced, and so on. It's all searchable. You can sign up for e-mails or updates when a given MP speaks, a bill is discussed, or a particular keyword is mentioned.

I made it as a volunteer, spare time project and I'm hugely pleased that people have found it useful and that it is used by tens of thousands of Canadians each month.

I should say that I've never worked for, in, or even really with government. So if I'm going to talk about open government, the subject of this study, it will be very much from an outsider's perspective.

Open government is a fairly vague term that has meant many things over many years, but the current usage—and you'll also hear “Government 2.0” as a synonym—means to me the idea that recent advances in technology can enable a government that is more engaged, collaborative, cooperative, and better able to spark certain kinds of innovation. This is certainly an appealing notion to me, and I hope to you, but it's also a bunch of fairly vague and happy words that would be fairly difficult to disagree with.

So to talk about something more concrete in an area in which I have at least a little knowledge, I'll focus on one particular idea, that of open data.

Let me quote Australia's Government 2.0 task force, whose absolutely excellent report I'd really recommend you look at: “...public sector information is a national resource and...releasing as much of it as possible on as permissive terms as possible will maximize its economic and social value and reinforce [its contribution] to a healthy democracy.”

Let me turn to data. When many people hear the word “data”, their eyelids start to grow heavier, their shoulders start to slump. I think that's a pity. When I hear data, I get excited. To me, data means possibility, it means opportunity, it means discovery. I really hope I can share with you at least some small part of that sense of excitement.

Let's take care of definitions. When I say data, I mean big piles of information structured so that computers can make sense of it—like Hansard, like pollutant inventories in industrial safety reports, like bus schedules, like satellite imagery, like the list of registered charities and their public filings, like government-funded scientific papers, like digital maps and details in the postal code system, like records of prescribed drugs and of disease occurrence. There are endless examples. If you ask anyone working in technology how great the value of data can be, the answer you'll get is immense.

Increasingly the Internet economy is driven by companies working to figure out how to extract value from data. Ray Ozzie is a computer legend—I'm a computer programmer, I should note—and currently a leader at Microsoft. Let me quote him: “Data is the flint for the next 25 years.”

A corollary to that is that the value of data is often not apparent at first. Less than a decade ago, many people didn't think that web search data, which you type into the little search box in your computers, was all that valuable. Companies offered web search, of course, but often as a sort of loss leader. Then Google came along and realized that in fact this web search data was worth many billions of dollars a year.

Several studies have attempted to measure the value of government data. A European study put the market size for the used public sector information at 27 billion euros, and other reports have come up with similarly staggering numbers. It's tremendously valuable, this data, and to lots of different groups: to those interested in public policy, whether researchers or, as is increasingly possible, just engaged citizens; to businesses in all manner of industries; to civic-minded Canadians, who in some ways have a new way of engaging with government and building things to help each other out; and to government, where data is of course used in planning and programs, which can now have the possibility of benefiting from much of this external innovation.

If we recognize the value of government data, it's the “open” in open data that allows that value to be unlocked. The words means many things, and I think it's worth the time for me to quickly try to unpack the phrase.

The first is that it be--and there is a piece of jargon coming up, but I promise it's important--machine-readable.

Let me use my site to explain what I mean by that. I republish Hansard, which I get from the website of Parliament, but because of the way it's made available, getting the data out so that I can republish it is difficult, and it took quite a bit of time and trickery on my part. The methods I use are fragile, so if Parliament changes the look or format of its site--or your site, I suppose--mine breaks. Because getting the data out is difficult, it's much harder to do all sorts of things, such as making my site fully bilingual--which it isn't--or reporting on committees like this one.

In my case this isn't the end of the world. The hurdles have caused plenty of frustration, but the site nonetheless exists. Often data that aren't machine-readable are simply too difficult to make productive use of. To make data available in a machine-readable way, which is more conducive to exploration, is for the most part not hard from the point of view of technology. The roadblocks here are matters of will and of culture.

“Open”, in the context of open data, also means “free”. In English that's one word, but it means two very important things.

In order to be truly useful, government data should be free of cost and accessible.

They should be free of cost because that's how they'll most efficiently create economic value and support innovation, and because sharing information that already exists over the Internet costs government next to nothing. They should be free, as in speech, by which I mean available under terms that allow repurposing and redistribution, which is exactly where the greatest value lies.

I want to stress that repurposing isn't an addendum or a blue-sky wish list item. Open Parliament is an example, of course, of repurposing, but there are others, even if I just restrict myself to my own life.

Here's one: I lived in New York for a while, where this wonderful website called EveryBlock takes the mundane details of municipal government--building permits, business permits, restaurant inspections, crime reports, municipal hearings--and repurposes them to publish a newspaper for your own block. What's done in aggregate becomes interesting when it's filtered for what's relevant and nearby, and doing that makes participating in local government that much more likely.

Here's another personal example: I studied public health briefly. What one often does in that field is try take disparate data sets--let's say cancer incidence and pollutant release--and try to combine and repurpose them to generate hypotheses to make Canadians healthier.

That's why it's crucial for the default posture of government to be sharing, rather than presenting a closed door, and why the default terms for government information should be an open licence similar to Creative Commons and several others, and not the current innovation-killing restrictions of crown copyright.

Anyone who's tried to work with government data has come up against that default posture of a closed door. Here are some personal examples: under what's called the Speaker's permission, I'm able to republish the Hansards of the House, but that's not true of the Senate. Republishing that is illegal. Your official photographs are under crown copyright, and I was unable to get permission to use them. On the municipal level, in Montreal I've tried to get digital maps of the city's political districts, les arrondissements, and I've tried to get bus schedules, and I've been rebuffed, despite knowing that it would take literally five minutes to send me the latter in computer-readable form.

A friend in Halifax tried a few years back to get the same information there--bus schedules, maps, and political districts--and was also denied, but he went further. An access to information request was denied and a court challenge was denied, with one of the grounds for denial being that the digital map was not a document but a mechanism for producing documents.

Needless to say, I disagree with the decision, but there's something in that phrase that catches my interest: a mechanism for producing information. Yes, in an information economy that's more or less the point: a means of creating information. Just last Saturday thousands of people across the world and hundreds in Canada got together for what was called an open data day, an event spearheaded by David Eaves in Vancouver and a fantastic team from right here in Ottawa.

I worked with a group in Montreal. Some twenty people worked on a dozen or so municipal projects, in particular on a site announcing which municipal rinks are open and have been flooded, and on a system to advise drivers about new road construction they might encounter on their regular route.

Digital maps are a means of creating information. That's borne out by the experience of Natural Resources Canada, NRCan, the only federal department with a thriving open data culture. Its geographic data sets are used by a huge community of researchers, who will tell you just how valuable they are. They're used heavily by industry, including mining and forestry, of course, but also real estate developers and burger joints, and even by me. I used data from NRCan's GeoGratis program for a recent project related to finding polling places in municipal elections.

I really believe this means of creating information and sparking innovation is one of the strongest arguments for an open government policy and release of open data. There are many points of view from which to argue for open data, and from there for the broader concept of open government. I've given you only one. For example, I haven't really mentioned accountability and transparency, which are very useful things in their own right, but I hope that I've been able to communicate at least some of the excitement that I and increasing numbers of Canadians feel about this, and I hope that that Canada will join what is a growing and promising worldwide movement.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Mulley.

Now we're going to hear from Mr. Moore. Mr. Moore, the floor is yours.

3:40 p.m.

Chef Information Officer, Information Technology, City of Edmonton

Chris Moore

Thank you very much, and good afternoon to the Honourable Shawn Murphy, committee chair; to the honourable members of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics; and to parliamentary staff.

Thank you very much for the invitation to address the committee, and thank you as well for making arrangements for me to participate by video conference.

The City of Edmonton is very pleased to have this opportunity to contribute to the committee's study on open government. The City of Edmonton is a global leader among municipalities regarding open government, whether through live or archived access to council meetings or through advances within our website regarding community-based information.

The city believes that the effective use of technology can enable public engagement and access to information. In addition to providing access to information, the city is also very focused on its responsibilities with regard to keeping private information private and secure.

Open government is now more than a trend; it has become a global movement. The governments of New Zealand, Australia, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom have demonstrated how new technology has enabled national governments to become increasingly open and accountable to their citizens.

Leading by example, Edmonton has greatly contributed to both open government and the open data movement in Canada. In March 2010 we were invited to Canberra, in the Australian capital territory--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Moore, may I interrupt you for ten seconds and ask you to to slow down a bit? The reason is that your comments are being translated, and if you slow down by about 20% to 30%, it would be helpful.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Chef Information Officer, Information Technology, City of Edmonton

Chris Moore

All right. Sorry about that.

Open government, as I said, is more than a trend: it has become a global movement. The governments of New Zealand, Australia, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom have demonstrated how new technologies have enabled national governments to become increasingly open and accountable to their citizens.

Leading by example, Edmonton has greatly contributed to both the open government and open data movements in Canada. In March of 2010 we were invited to the Australian capital territory in Canberra to meet with the Australian Government 2.0 task force and also to meet with senior staff working on the implementation of their national Government 2.0 direction.

There have been a number of articles published in Canada, France, and the Asia-Pacific area regarding our strategies and practices. In 2009 we spent time reviewing the use of information and technology within the City of Edmonton. Our review guided us to our new strategic direction, which is to balance between meeting the needs of our city departments as they deliver service to citizens and business and developing sustainable technology solutions for the corporation as a whole.

In order to meet both those needs, it was imperative that we reviewed the possibilities of what we call an “open ecosystem”. In our open ecosystem we're developing solutions using open data, open source, open systems, and open networks. To achieve this, we invited Edmonton-based companies as well as other orders of government and other public organizations into this ecosystem.

We determined that our first opportunity was to develop an open data catalogue. While the City of Edmonton provides information on our website in PDF and text formats, these are not the most accessible formats for people who want to use our data to develop software. Our open data catalogue provides the information in a machine-readable format, and in doing so has increased the usefulness of our municipal information.

In October 2009 city councillor Don Iveson tabled an administrative inquiry requesting the city administration to respond to the following questions:

What level of awareness does the city administration have regarding open data in municipal government?

What current initiatives are under way within city administration that might qualify under the spirit of open data?

What further initiatives are under consideration within the city, and on what basis are they being evaluated?

Is administration monitoring any success or challenges with this trend in other jurisdictions, especially large Canadian cities, and if so, what can be shared with council?

What would the city administration recommend on next steps regarding open data, plans, or strategies?

On January 13, 2010, the city administration responded to this inquiry and launched our open data catalogue. Through innovation and creativity, the city's open data catalogue was developed in three weeks. Initially it contained 12 data sets. The data catalogue has now expanded to over 40 data sets, including data from school boards and other organizations.

Releasing the data in an open format continues to prove how tangible and useful data can be when repurposed. On October 18, 2010, once the polls were closed during the 2010 election, up-to-date election result information was provided every five minutes via the open data catalogue, with the results visualized using an application developed by a local Edmonton software developer. The same developer used the same application to create election visualization for open data during the Ontario municipal elections the next week, so thanks to open data and the enterprising spirit of one Edmontonian, the cities of London, Ottawa, and Toronto also benefited on election night in Ontario.

As part of our open ecosystem in 2010, the City of Edmonton ran an applications competition. This was a contest in which software developers were challenged to develop useful programs for citizens using the open data from the City of Edmonton. Edmonton was the first municipality and the first government agency in Canada to run such a competition, and $50,000 in prizes were awarded to six companies or individuals, with 32 applications developed and 86 ideas submitted by the public. Apps4Edmonton was a huge success. It was an example of how open government can be extremely practical for citizens and also provide economic development opportunities.

In October of this year the City of Edmonton was the showcase municipality at the government and technology event in Ottawa known as GTEC. The city showcased the work of the Apps4Edmonton winners, with two of the winners recreating their apps for the citizens of Ottawa during GTEC.

These are just a few examples of how the City of Edmonton is taking advantage of open government and leveraging technology to increase public engagement in the provision of information.

What's next for Edmonton? The City of Edmonton has been working with the cities of Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa to establish a working relationship to advance the work on open government and open data. By partnering together on items such as revisions to our data licence and data catalogue format, we can all advance more quickly and develop a standard approach across all cities.

The City of Edmonton is currently developing further strategies on open government by considering which policies and bylaws need to be in place to ensure sustainability of the work already completed. The information technology branch is working with business units across the city to liberate data and integrate open data catalogue feeds as a standard feature in city business systems. In 2009 and 2010 the city hosted workshops that were open to city staff, the public, and the technology sector. At these workshops the city worked collaboratively to build the open government direction. This approach of community engagement will continue in this critical component.

The city has also hosted a workshop on open government for municipalities in the capital region, encouraging them to consider the benefits of open data and providing access to our information, knowledge, and experience. A number of municipalities in the capital region are working on open data initiatives.

The City of Edmonton has also worked closely with the Information and Privacy Commissioner of Alberta and the commissioner's office. The City of Edmonton is supportive of the September 1, 2010, resolution of the federal, provincial, and territorial information and privacy commission entitled “Open Government Resolution”. The city is working with the provincial Information and Privacy Commissioner in 2011 to further develop open government solutions and opportunities at both the municipal and provincial levels within Alberta.

The city's investment in and commitment to open government contributes significantly to building a great city.

Again, I'd like to thank the Honourable Shawn Murphy, committee chair, and the honourable members of the standing committee for this opportunity to present the value of open government for the City of Edmonton.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Moore, and congratulations on all the excellent work the city has undertaken on this initiative.

We're now going to go to questions by members. The first round will go to the Liberals, and it's seven minutes.

Dr. Bennett will begin.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Thanks very much, and thanks to both the witnesses.

In the federal government there are three branches: the legislative branch, the executive branch, and the judicial branch. Here we are obviously dealing mainly with the executive branch in relation to open government, but I think we will be pressing on in the study at the Library of Parliament committee to deal more with Michael's open Parliament approach in terms of making sure that we, as parliamentarians, have the technology and tools that we need to do a better job representing Canadians between elections. We'll be looking at that.

All three areas, obviously, have to be open if we're going to actually have open government. I would like to know where you both feel we are in Canada in that endeavour. As we proceed on this study at the committee, what advice do you have for the committee as to what we should be asking from witnesses?

Obviously we think it's a bit early for you to dictate the recommendations, but in terms of the biggest possible approach to open government, I would like to know some of the things you think we should focus on as a committee and how we should proceed, and from the municipal point of view, how does that marry with what the citizens we share at all levels of government need in order to conduct their business?

At the beginning I have to say that at the Public Health Agency of Canada, I had huge excitement at the prospect of GIS mapping of the social determinants of health being able to actually show neighbourhoods of high need, in terms of poverty, violence, the environment, shelter, equity, and education, and how you would, as you say, merge all those data such that Canadians could actually see that we would be able to do needs-based funding based on what showed on the mapping of the data.

Do you have some advice, each of you, in terms of how to begin this huge project?

3:55 p.m.

Web programmer, As an Individual

Michael Mulley

I want to be careful not to talk too many levels above my pay grade and start giving advice—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We all do it here, so go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

Web programmer, As an Individual

Michael Mulley

--but I can say what the outcomes should be.

You asked what Canada's current level was. There are some departments at the federal level, namely NRCan, which I mentioned, who are doing excellent work, but they're the exception right now. Internationally, in comparison with many of its peers, Canada does not have a federal open-data effort; it does not have any sort of federal open government effort. Those peers, which Chris mentioned, are governments like the U.S., U.K., Australia, and New Zealand. Those are the biggest names.

The advantage of so many of these other countries having spearheaded efforts in this area in recent years, though, is that there's now a surplus of models. I mentioned Australia's Government 2.0 task force, and their report is great reading. I really recommend that you take a look at it. It's online. It really lays out a lot of the approaches to open government in clear language and with a lot of recommendations.

The way those efforts have proceeded—and I'm focusing a little bit on the relatively technical open-data aspects of this—is that they have generally included a statement from the highest level of government that departments should identify the high-level data sets they have and start releasing them; and there's generally been a central coordinating agency that establishes practices for doing that, and sets licensing conditions. That's the way in which most of the models have proceeded.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Moore.

3:55 p.m.

Chef Information Officer, Information Technology, City of Edmonton

Chris Moore

Thank you.

That's an excellent question. I've been thinking a lot about this over the last year, especially when Senator Lundy and her staff invited me to Australia earlier this year.

My concern is that a number of years ago we had a leadership position in the world when it came to e-governance and web transactions. In talking to people in Australia—and this year I've also been in Seoul, and in Manila a few weeks ago—I really believe that we have lost our leadership position as a country. I think it would be relatively easy to get it back, because we do have good collaboration among orders of government across the country. In terms of doing something, the question is, where do you start?

The work that was done in early September by the information and privacy commissioners, federally and provincially and territorially, I think was unique. I've not seen that in any of the other countries that have a Government 2.0 strategy. Typically, in the other countries—Australia, New Zealand, and the U.S.—you get really driven by the party or the politician, which is difficult at times, because if the players change, as they did in Australia, how do you know if the strategy is going to survive? There was a period of time when they didn't even know who was leading the country.

The Government 2.0 task force, or the work that was done in Australia, I would absolutely say is a model. The neat thing they did and the important thing that we've discovered at a local level is that you need the engagement. You need the engagement of the community. The question is, who is the community?

I was speaking this morning at an event over at the War Museum, GoC3, a gathering of civil servants, Web 2.0 practitioners, and social media. They were talking about technology. I told them this morning, and I'll tell you the same thing, that we have, among 240,000 civil servants, so many creative and very inspiring people—for me. They know what needs to be done. We just need some kind of a rallying cry, some kind of a strategy to bring them all together. I think we have all of the elements in the country. We have engaged civil servants, we have engaged politicians at all levels, and we have the ability to work together.

I really think, if we pull something together as a country, all orders of government, we could actually surpass the other countries, because the other countries are really led more from their national or central government, and don't typically engage the local or state or provincial governments.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Moore

Thank you, Dr. Bennett.

We're now going to go to Madame Freeman, pour sept minutes.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

I'd like to thank Mr. Mulley and Mr. Moore. Their remarks were very interesting.

Regarding the project that Mr. Mulley has been working on for the past six months, Canada's Information Commissioner, Ms. Suzanne Legault, has said that your websites are the way of the future, especially in light of voter disengagement from politics, especially among those in the 25 years of age and under demographic group. She also expressed disappointment over the fact that this was a private, and not a government initiative.

How do you feel about what she said?

4 p.m.

Web programmer, As an Individual

Michael Mulley

It was very kind of her to say that. I hope...

4 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

What do you think about her second comment, namely that she was disappointed in the fact this initiative came from private citizens and not from government?

4 p.m.

Web programmer, As an Individual

Michael Mulley

When we talk about open data, it means that members of the public can, for any number of reasons, innovate in a way that the State cannot. There are not many things that the State should not do, but there are many reasons why ordinary citizens can innovate in a variety of ways.

I am very happy to hear these comments about my site, but there are all sorts of things that I'm able to do that others, such as Parliament, can't. For instance, I pair things that have been said in the House with news coverage and Twitter feeds, and so on, which, for various structural reasons, Parliament can't do. I can react much more quickly. I can experiment. Failure is very cheap for me, which isn't always the case in the civil service.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

So then, you believe the work you are doing can complement the primary work that the State should be doing.

4 p.m.

Web programmer, As an Individual

Michael Mulley

Certainly. I think the State...

4 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

...has a complementary role to play.