Evidence of meeting #44 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chantal Bernier  Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner
Colin McKay  Director, Research, Education and Outreach, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Tracey Lauriault  As an Individual
David Mason  Executive Director, Visible Government

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I call the meeting to order.

I want to welcome everyone. This meeting is called pursuant to the standing orders. It's to deal with the committee's ongoing study on open government or open data.

This afternoon's meeting will be broken into three segments. In the first segment, beginning at 3:30, we originally planned to have with us Jennifer Stoddart, the Privacy Commissioner of Canada. Unfortunately, Ms. Stoddart's office notified us this morning that she's very ill today and unable to attend, so we've substituted Madame Chantal Bernier, the assistant privacy commissioner of Canada. She's accompanied by Colin McKay, the director of research, education, and outreach.

I propose to take the first panel until about 4:20. Then we'll bring in the second panel of two witnesses. At 5:15 we'll deal with Madame Freeman's motion.

Madame Bernier, we'll now invite you to make your opening remarks. Please take no longer than 10 minutes. Again, welcome to the committee.

3:30 p.m.

Chantal Bernier Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Stoddart sends her sincerest apologies. She would have really liked to be here today.

I would like to begin by applauding the committee for addressing the highly relevant, topical issue of privacy in the context of open government.

As we plead for greater and greater openness in government, the issue necessarily arises of protecting personal information in that context. I think that this is a balance on which we must absolutely focus in a democracy. I am happy to be here today. Hopefully, I can contribute to your discussions.

In September 2010, Canada's federal and territorial access to information and privacy commissioners signed a resolution to endorse and promote open government as a means to enhance transparency and accountability. The resolution specifically stated that open government must afford due consideration to privacy, confidentiality, and security.

Our commissioner's letter to this committee on July 15 addressed this intersection between open government and privacy. It stated that any public interest that favoured disclosure ought to be weighed against the individual interest of the right to privacy. While our office supports increased efforts to bolster online access to governments, greater transparency, accountability, and public engagement, we also urge the government to remain mindful of the responsibility to protect the vast amount of personal information in its possession.

Let me turn to certain privacy concerns that must guide us in our discussion.

Integrating open government and the protection of privacy rests upon several considerations that are particularly put to the test through new information technology. The first relates to the nature of the information. Can seemingly anonymous information become, through technology, personal information? Second, how does the digital age impact on the traditional balance between transparency and privacy? Let me address each consideration separately with concrete examples.

First, what constitutes personal information? There is a difference between open data and open information, or structured and unstructured data, and this nuance is a key aspect of the discussion. Structured data are mostly facts, numbers, statistical sets, geographical maps, weather data, and so forth. These data sets do not contain identifiable personal information. The Privacy Act applies when data are found to contain personal information about an identifiable individual, and the issue is that the line between identifiable and non-identifiable information is becoming increasingly blurred with the emergence of new information technologies. What initially appears to be anonymous information can in some cases be combined with information from other sources and then manipulated using powerful database technologies to produce data that can be linked to specific individuals.

Here are two concrete examples of that. In the first case, an individual complained to our office that an organization had combined Statistics Canada's data on demography with White Pages phone book information to create new personal information and therefore should have required consent to use. Our investigation determined that the particular complaint was not well founded, because the new data produced were about neighbourhoods, not identifiable individuals. Still, it forced us to reflect on the consequences of merging databases.

The second illustration of how seemingly anonymous data can become personal information is in the case of Gordon v. Canada (Minister of Health). We were granted leave to appear in the case, which was heard in Federal Court in 2008. In that case, a journalist's access to information request for data contained in Health Canada's adverse drug reaction information system was granted, except for 12 database fields. These were withheld on the basis that the disclosure could link to identifiable personal information. The court was faced with determining whether the province from which an adverse drug reaction report was received should be exempt from access.

Mr. Justice Gibson found substantial evidence that disclosure of the province field could indeed lead to a serious possibility that an individual could be identified, and that alone was leading to valuable information. Obviously, such identification was not warranted in the public interest.

A second consideration I want to put to you is the impact of the Internet on transparency and privacy. Our office's position on Internet posting of the decisions of administrative tribunals is an example. Federal administrative tribunals are under the jurisdiction of our office and are subject to the Privacy Act. It is our view that the impact of the Internet involves costs to privacy that go well beyond the benefit of public interest.

To reconcile the goals of transparency of government and privacy of individuals in relation to administrative tribunals, our office, in collaboration with our provincial counterparts, has developed a guidance document on electronic disclosure of personal information in the decisions of administrative tribunals. This reference document is available on our website.

The guidance document makes a few recommendations that may guide administrative tribunals in ensuring both transparency and protection of privacy. For example, we recommend that a tribunal first assess what legal obligation it has to make its decision available to the public at large. Second, we recommend that it assess whether the public disclosure of the information is necessary and if it is appropriate, again based on public interest. We suggest that public interest be assessed by taking into account a series of considerations, such as protecting the public from fraud, protecting the public from physical harm or professional misconduct, or promoting deterrence. If there is a public interest to disclose personal information, it still must be weighed in relation to sensitivity, to accuracy, and to the possibility of harm that may come to the individual.

I also want to turn to privacy by design. Privacy by design is a pre-emptive approach that requires the integration of privacy considerations into new programs and databases from the outset, not as an afterthought. This concept is essential to open government.

A key part of open government is to build trust between government and the citizens it serves. An important way to do that is to treat people's personal information with respect, to safeguard it, and to ensure it is not inappropriately disclosed. That is why data protection authorities here and around the world are increasingly convinced that governments need to build privacy considerations directly into the design of any program or service through which personal data are being collected. Privacy must be the default position, rather than something acted on as an afterthought.

At an operational level it is important to identify in detail the logistics, architecture, and risks in open government projects. Given the pace with which governments are moving, it is vital that consideration be paid to ongoing privacy training, especially in IT project areas, to proper rules and processes for disclosing information, and to the mechanics and resourcing of the existing access to information and privacy system.

Let me move now to assessing open government initiatives. Every release of government information requires a careful assessment to ensure its continued compliance with the Privacy Act. Each data set must require varied assessment, giving the type of data in question, the intended objectives of releasing the data, the nature of the organization, and the issues at play. We are pleased to assist departments and agencies to strengthen their privacy practices through our review of privacy impact assessments.

In conclusion, I want to make it clear that our office supports open government as a key principle of democracy. Transparency should not, however, come at the cost of individuals' statutory rights to privacy. The delicate balance we have established until now between transparency and privacy must not be compromised by new technology that makes information both more accessible and more sought after than ever.

We urge the government to continue to incorporate privacy protection in the development of new IT systems and databases and to continue to value privacy as an immutable characteristic of human dignity.

I thank you. I remain available for questions, as does my colleague, Colin McKay. Merci beaucoup.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Madame Bernier.

We're doing two panels, but I'm just going to take it as the first round and the second round, so I thought you might want to take that into consideration.

We're going to start with the first round, which is seven minutes.

Please go ahead, Dr. Bennett.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Thank you very much.

I understand that the Privacy Commissioner for Canada has signed a joint resolution on the importance of open government, which was also signed by the information and privacy commissioners of all the provinces and territories, but, shockingly, last week we heard from the CIO of the Treasury Board that there actually is no open government policy yet for the federal government.

You are using words like “pleased to assist departments”. That means they don't have to ask you, because without a policy there's no process, no guidelines, and no directive that we will have privacy by design. There isn't a policy, and there are therefore no Treasury Board guidelines requiring that the Privacy Commissioner be consulted if there is a worry that this data set might or should or could reveal information that is private to Canadians.

Can you tell me how on earth you work in this environment in which the federal government has yet to declare that there will be an open government policy? Are you involved in any committees that are actually hoping, crossing their fingers, wishing, or working toward getting an open government policy for the Government of Canada?

3:45 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

Thank you.

There is actually a Treasury Board directive that makes it mandatory for departments to develop privacy impact assessments for any project or initiative that has implications for the holding of personal data. Those Privacy Act assessments are submitted to our office, and we review them and make recommendations to ensure the protection of privacy.

Should there be, or when there will be, specific open government programs and initiatives, we expect to review a privacy impact assessment and make our recommendations as to how the protection of privacy and the goals of transparency can both be met.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

When you signed the joint resolution on the importance of open government, did you have to indicate to your provincial and territorial colleagues how far along the Government of Canada was in developing an open government policy?

3:45 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

Actually, this was at our federal-provincial-territorial meeting last September in Whitehorse. The discussion was very much focused on open government, very much focused on the fact that it was spreading, so to speak, and that it has become the new way to relate to citizens. Along with our colleagues, we wanted to make sure that the principles we felt should guide this new direction were stated; the exercise was very much one of principles to ensure that we were all coming to the same conclusion as to how governments in Canada should move forward.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

But is your office involved at the present time in developing an open government policy for the Government of Canada?

3:45 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

We are not, specifically, but we work very closely with the Treasury Board Secretariat and therefore with the CIO's office. We expect any development in that area to be supported by a privacy impact assessment. We review privacy impact assessments thoroughly and make recommendations. I must say that on the whole, our recommendations are followed.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

With regard to inclusion by design, are you satisfied that as long as everything has a privacy impact assessment just before it's disclosed, it's okay? My concern is with the work that needs to be done to say that open government means the default position is “open” and that people have to work to prove why it shouldn't be open. Is your office involved in any of that conversation about changing the default position, about changing the most secretive government we've ever had to an open government? Are you saying that there's not any working group now on getting a policy in place for the Government of Canada?

3:45 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

At this point I'm saying our office is working with the Treasury Board Secretariat, and it has been working with individual departments every time they develop a program or an initiative that can have implications for the handling of personal information.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

You understand that in the OECD document, Canada stated that by the fall 2010 there would be a single-source, open government portal, and we still haven't seen it. Do you have any idea why this isn't happening or where we are on the road to what they've told the world would be done last fall?

3:50 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

Unfortunately, I'm not privy to that information at all, or to that work. What I can say is that if there were a specific program set up, then we would definitely be involved to ensure that privacy is duly considered and integrated.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

The U.K. government has placed numbers on the impetus to a digital economy that comes from making data sets open, and it is in the area of £8 billion. This country is way behind, and sometimes privacy gets the blame for that.

Can you tell us what role you think privacy plays in the lack of forward movement on this, and whether, among your partners in Canada, there is any jurisdiction that seems to be doing better? The cities seem to be moving very quickly on this, and the feds seem to be slow. How are your provincial and territorial colleagues doing?

3:50 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

We are all very conscious of the risks to privacy; therefore, everyone is proceeding very cautiously.

Our role as of the Office of the Privacy Commissioner is to ensure that the privacy considerations are duly addressed.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Dr. Bennett.

We now move on to Madame Freeman for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Good afternoon, Ms. Bernier. Thank you for being here and thank you for your presentation. Good afternoon, Mr. McKay.

I would like to get back to a question that was asked and on which we should really focus. Last week, we had with us Ms. Corinne Charette, Chief Information Officer at the Treasury Board Secretariat. Ms. Charette talked to us about her team developing an open data portal.

You said, without being too specific, that this project is under way and has been approved by the government. I would like to know whether you were expressly consulted on the issue and whether you have been in any way involved in this project.

3:50 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

We work closely with the Treasury Board Secretariat and we follow developments in open government. We have still not received a privacy impact assessment. We expect that the full project will be submitted to us as a privacy impact assessment and that the Treasury Board will keep us updated on any new developments.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

I understand that you want to be kept up to date on the work done by the Treasury Board, but I asked if you were involved in the process at some point. To be more specific, I would like to know whether the Chief Information Officer of the Treasury Board Secretariat, Ms. Charette, the information commissioner and Ms. Stoddart have met to assess the impacts of this portal. Open government is a huge project. I want to know whether you have worked together on the project at all.

3:50 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

No, not yet.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

And you have not been consulted, in one way or another, on the topic?

3:50 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

Not yet. They have not submitted a specific project to us.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Had you heard that this portal was being created?

3:50 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner , Assitant Privacy Commissioner

Chantal Bernier

Of course, like everyone else. We are staying informed. We have noted that various initiatives have been taken throughout the government. However, we have not yet been officially provided with a project on open government.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

And if a project was submitted to you, how would you apply the Privacy Act, specifically as part of an open data process?

A representative of the Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario appeared before the committee and said that, in an open government, we need to take into consideration personal information from the outset before we even begin the open data disclosure process. If we wait until the process has already begun to do that, it becomes really unworkable. The Commissioner, Ms. Cavoukian, who is really a champion in her field, suggests this way of operating.

Do you agree with that approach?