Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 14th, 2011

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Excusing me for interrupting you. Could you explain the meaning of the word “redisseminate”? Statistics Canada publishes reports every day. I turn on the television and see the figures. So then, that data is redisseminated.

[Tracey Lauriault]

Yes, the data is redisseminated.

I can only redisseminate Statistics Canada data if it is in the form of a table, chart, graph or map. I cannot use data provided by Statistics Canada, pass it on to David and ask him to do something with it. I draw up a map and I ask him to tell me a story based on this data. If I turn the data over to him, I am in fact infringing Canada's copyright legislation.

This goes for all works created by the federal government. They are subject to Crown copyright. David and I, along with several other organizations, have asked that Creative Commons Attribution or Creative Commons Public Domain Database licenses be granted to protect copyright in Canadian digital data, whether scientific, geomatic, administrative or federal government data. If such licenses were granted, this would mean that I could take Statistics Canada data, analyse them and share them with David who could then use them for another purpose. If I wanted to, I could analyse the data and resell my research findings.

Under the Crown copyright system, if the government does not like what I say, then it can take back the data. This is also a bit of a problem, one that came to light when the government started to influence the questions asked in the census. It is a regressive policy. We would not want all digital data to be controlled in the same way, especially public digital data on the different geographic zones we talked about earlier. That is the problem with the Crown copyright system. Federal government data cannot be shared or redisseminated or used to create other digital products.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.

We're going to conclude now with Mr. Siksay.

You have five minutes, Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank both of you for being here. Both of your briefs were extremely helpful, and they were different from things we've heard so far. They are very important to our work.

Mr. Mason, I wanted to ask you about the benefits section of your brief.

You've done something that we haven't spent a lot of time on. You talked about the future of open data and open government, whereas we've been talking about catch-up a lot of the time. In the final paragraph in that section you talked about some interesting things, such as reports writing themselves. You talked about automated inference. You talked about developing sensitive, creative, self-correcting feedback models.

Can you say a bit more about how you see that future, and what kinds of things you think might be possible? Do the futurist thing for us.

[David Mason]

The information we've always used has just been information. It's basically been like a fax. The last point discussed taking information and putting it on the news; that's not really thinking there are people out there who would want to look at that issue in more detail. If they wanted to find more detail, they would have to go through a very long process to try to find the actual information that was involved.

Like it or not, today we're being dragged along by a lot of technological development that's happening around the world, emanating from a few centres of incredible innovation. We're barely tapping into these, and it's mostly coming from companies like Google. One of the most important trends is that the information itself is becoming more structured. Sometimes these structures are intentionally applied. If a spreadsheet is released, then somebody else could take the data and learn a statistic about a region, but sometimes that information can be extracted using different methods. By using these different methods, such as those I used in the hospital case, we can start to understand that if it's a Tuesday afternoon at four o'clock and it's the day after New Year's, then this might be the best clinic to go to.

We never really want to think of computers replacing humans in their roles, but we always want to think of computers augmenting the work of humans, adding information, and being an agent. The most advanced systems that are being developed around the world are focused on this kind of intelligence, on adding to information, so that it can create a much more informed view of the systems we interact with.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

You talk about that type of innovation being concentrated in a few organizations, such as Google. In your brief you also talk about accessibility and inclusiveness and the broader population's ability to participate in this evolution or revolution or transformation in how we use data. Can you say a little more about inclusiveness and accessibility?

Maybe, Ms. Lauriault, you have something to add on that score as well.

[David Mason]

The way I think of government is that it has to have some influence in shaping what's happening, and I do think privacy and participation and anti-fraud crime can be the same ball of wax. I think it could be a message that this is an opportunity for Canadians to better engage with government and for learning institutions to access information, real information, directly. I think it's really a good opportunity, perhaps through your e-consultation and other means, to promote these ideas and to see it as an opportunity for revitalization and informing as well.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I'll pass to you, Ms. Lauriault. Australia did this huge infrastructure project, or at least is in the process of their broadband network proposal. Is that an accessibility piece of this idea? Does it have an impact on this? Maybe you can say something about that.

[Tracey Lauriault]

Of course infrastructure has an impact, right? You need the pipes to move the information and the themes. The geomatics and cartographic research centre, for instance, works in the north. There are serious broadband issues in the north, so we've had to create local area networks so aboriginal elders and students can interact with their own maps and the atlases that they've created themselves.

Of course you need the pipes to move the content, and that's a big issue. As well, Internet metering would certainly be a problem, among a couple of other problems, if we're looking at open data. Accessibility certainly has an impact in that way.

However, there's also accessibility in terms of people with disabilities. The Government of Canada has been excellent in working on that file and advancing that agenda through its common look and feel initiative and other standards that have come through the Treasury Board in that area, but there's also something very important called the World Wide Web Consortium. There is a focus in that consortium specifically on creating content for people with disabilities.

Another very good issue—and I think Madame Freeman brought it up—is the issue of whether these things are easy to use. Can we find stuff? Does it look nice? Is it a super-übergeeky thing that no one can navigate, or do we feel that this is a place we want to be to look for information and that we'll be able to find it and use it?

I see accessibility that way, as well as accessibility to the pipes and accessibility in terms of licensing. I also see accessibility in terms of having that chief data officer tomorrow so that I can find the stuff we need to do our research.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Siksay.

Thank you, Madame Lauriault.

That concludes the questions. On behalf of all members of the committee, I want to thank you both. You gave us what I would consider a lot of information over the last hour. You've taken it from the perspective of the user, the on-the-ground user, so your testimony has been extremely helpful to the committee.

I'm going to allow you, if you want, to give us any closing comments. I do this with some caution, because we're very tight for time. If there are any brief remarks you want to make to the committee before we go to another aspect of committee business, please go ahead.

We'll start with you, Mr. Mason.

[David Mason]

Well, I did mean to mention that technology can be very enabling. It can be an equalizer when it comes to people who are vision impaired or mobility impaired. Also, many more people can fit into a conversation than can fit in a room. I think that's really important for democracy as well.

My hope is that there will be some shaping of this so that it's not just a kind of a Google coming along and swallowing what we did today. There's a tremendous danger that services can all be uploaded to the cloud.

[Tracey Lauriault]

It's our Canada. It's our government. It's our data. We have a country full of really smart people, really great community-based organizations, and, if I may dare to say it, wonderful politicians who could all work together towards creating an open data infrastructure for Canada.

But we will have to find a way to work differently. We will have to be less risk averse, and we're going to have to be okay when people sometimes say things we don't like, because that's what a knowledge-based economy and a democracy are about. I think open government and open data are all about a good, functioning, knowledge-based economy, and that's why we should do it.

There's one last thing, if I may. David and I have some little open “we love Canada“ data Valentine's cards that we'd like to give you as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We would appreciate that.

Again, thank you very much. Your testimony has been invaluable, and thank you very much for that little Valentine's gift. We all appreciate it.

We now have a few minutes left. I'm going to deal with Madame Freeman's motion at this point in time. I'll get the clerk to give me a copy of the motion. It's very brief. It can't be any briefer. I will read it:

That the President of the Treasury Board be invited to appear before the Committee in regard to the study on open government.

I propose to allow Madame Freeman deux minutesto speak to this motion. I'll entertain up to six interventions. Then we'll come back to Madame Freeman and put it to a vote.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My motion reads as follows:

That the President of the Treasury Board be invited to appear before the Committee in regard to the study on open government.

It is critically important, in my view, that we invite the President of the Treasury Board, given that we heard testimony last week from Ms. Corinne Charette, the Chief Information Officer who reports to the Treasury Board Secretariat. She is already working on an open government portal. The Treasury Board Secretariat is, after all, the institution responsible for the Access to Information Act, for open data and for the Privacy Act.

As such, it is critically important, in my opinion, that the minister responsible for the Treasury Board Secretariat, the institution that enacted this legislation and that is responsible for information disclosure, come here to discuss policies with us.

We met with the Chief Information Officer, who reports to the minister. However, we are not sure exactly what mandate she was given. It isn't clear. It would be good to know more about the directives and mandate issued to the Chief Information Officer who is responsible for ensuring open data in an open government.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Does anybody else want to speak to the motion?

Go ahead, Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Chair, I think this is a really important motion. I want to support it.

I think understanding the political will of government to move in this direction is important and I think only the President of the Treasury Board or the Prime Minister himself could give us that information. I want to support Madame Freeman's motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Easter, did you want to speak? Your name is on the list.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I also support the motion.

As was said in earlier questioning, in the OECD document we said we were going to have a single portal on open government in 2010. That hasn't happened. We need to know why that hasn't happened, and we need to know what kinds of directives have been sent out to the various departments to direct government departments to a more open government policy, if in fact that has even been looked at.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay, Madam Freeman, do you have any final comments you want to make?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Chair, I could just say, while she's returning, that we will be supporting the motion.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Today is a very special day, We would like to spread the love here today.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you. Your candour never ceases to amaze me. Perhaps because it's Valentine's Day...

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We should make every day Valentine's Day.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.