Information & Ethics Committee on March 7th, 2011

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair, I think that I have to agree with much of what Mr. Siksay said.

My final point on this is that to whatever extent a mistake was made, that mistake has been acknowledged. A staff member has lost his job. We could bring that staff member and that minister in here to restate what they have already conceded. I'm not sure exactly what that would accomplish.

Effectively, we would have Minister Kenney come in and say that the letterhead shouldn't have been used. He's already said that, though, so there would be nothing new in that. We could have Mr. Nejatian come in and say that he shouldn't have used the letterhead, and there would be nothing new in that because he's already said as much and even offered his resignation to prove it.

And then we could have some acrimony around whether they should say it again, or say it louder, or with more contrition. But I'm not sure any of that would add to the public interest or merit delaying our important work on open data and open government.

Anyway, that's my final intervention on that subject, unless something Mr. Easter says inspires further contributions for my part.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.

Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Mr. Chair, we talked at one stage about parliamentary resources and I think this is a great example of what we're doing right here. We have a witness who has been called, sitting here for the last 45 minutes waiting to testify. We're using up his time, and we're not getting anywhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Albrecht.

Madame Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I am quite taken aback by Mr. Poilievre's comments, who asked several times who would be interested in hearing such a witness as Mr. Kenney. This is not the first time I hear Mr. Poilievre say something like that.

The fact is that our committee, the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, must look into situations we have to object to. With the current Conservative government, we can't just move past this incident and pretend like nothing had happened because an apology was produced.

I also partly agree with Mr. Siksay who reminded us that, in this committee, we had a vary difficult time getting witnesses to appear last spring. It was like pulling teeth. This committee has a hard time getting to the bottom of things.

However, I don't agree that we should forget about the appearance of such an important witness simply because the Conservative party and government try to prevent us from hearing witnesses and getting to the bottom of things. Just because they are constantly doing this, it does not mean we will stop protesting against these actions and making sure that everything is done the way it should be.

So, I will support Mr. Easter's motion and I believe that the witness needs to appear before the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think the parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister misses the point. The key point and my final point is that this is an extremely serious affront to our democracy in this country. You have a Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism who is also the person in charge of ethnic community outreach for the Conservative Party of Canada, and it has come to light that one of his staffers has prepared an extensive document that in my view is basically pushing people to strong-arm that very ethnic community that depends on that minister for their very livelihood in this country, and for determining whether their relatives might come here for a death in the family or whatever.

This is unbelievable in terms of the conflict. I never thought we'd see the likes of this happen in Canada, but we're seeing it. It's outrageous, Mr. Chair, and we need, as a committee, to get to the bottom of this. How far do we let this government go in violating the rules of democracy in this country?

As I said earlier, we see the CRA, an agency of the Government of Canada, today not calling it the Government of Canada, but calling it “the Harper government”. That's outrageous, Mr. Chairman.

From this staffer we need to find out where the directives came from. He said he was directed by the minister to write the letter. What other staff were involved? Does it go to other ministers in other departments? What resources were used within the government to prepare this huge database? Is this government getting into tax returns or whatever else to find out who people are and target them? Is that what's happening with this government?

How far are we going to let this go before we as MPs...? We as MPs have a responsibility in this country to uphold the Parliament of Canada and the rights of the Canadian people, and I believe this minister is violating those rights by the way this has happened.

So I'm very strongly suggesting, Mr. Chair, that we need to get to the bottom of this. I don't accept the parliamentary secretary's response that this is just a matter of a staffer making a mistake and resigning. This is a minister who is caught in a serious conflict between his partisan responsibilities—and yes, he's working lots of hours, I'll grant him that—and his ministerial responsibilities, and is targeting the very communities he's responsible for as minister.

It's a serious matter, Mr. Chair, and that's why I brought it forward.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Our arguments are getting somewhat repetitive.

I'm going to hear from Madame Thi Lac.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There is another unresolved issue that's part of the debate that was launched last week, following the supposed use of parliamentary letterhead to solicit donations by one of Mr. Kenney's employees. I'm talking about the number of responses Conservatives got following this invitation to contribute to the funding of their party. We have not succeeded in getting this information.

How many people donated money once they received the letter, and how much money did the Conservative Party raise as a result? If only for the sake of fairness, I think it would be important to hear the Minister on the issue. Apologizing is all fine and well, but this letter probably produced results. There are most likely people who donated money once they received the letter. Even if there was only one donation, that money was obtained in a questionable manner.

After something like this, it's not enough to just apologize while holding on to the money that was raised. For this reason alone, it's important to hear Mr. Kenney on this issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

In answer to Ms. Thi Lac, this is important. If she reads the letter in question, she will see that the letter was directed specifically to electoral district associations of the Conservative Party--period, full stop. That was it.

The spectre that a person like Mr. Volpe, on television the other day, and other Liberals have been creating is that this is an affront, a threat to the immigrant community because if you don't pay up you will.... I mean, that is just sheer demagoguery of the first order. The fact is that there was a request made by the members of the Alberta caucus to the minister, who is also a member of the Alberta caucus, for information so that they could consider whether they would ask the Conservative electoral district associations to contribute money to this fund.

Now, we have to remember that absolutely everything in Canada with respect to election funding or political spending of this type by a political party is under Elections Canada and is under very tight control. So the money that would be contributed to a Conservative constituency in Edmonton or Calgary or Red Deer could then be traced or tracked to the amount that it would be contributing to the $200,000. This is a very hermetically sealed $200,000 that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the immigrant community in Canada or with people outside of those who choose to contribute to a political party. So the spectre that has been created regrettably and falsely and, I would say, maliciously by the Liberals that this is somehow going after immigrants to say “If you don't pay up you won't get it” is pure puffery of the first order, and quite frankly I think is demeaning and degrading to the political process.

I think, Madame Thi Lac, you've asked a very valid and legitimate question, and I hope if you read the letter you will see that the letter specifies that the $200,000 is being asked for from constituency organizations, not from the public at large.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Abbott.

The chair will now ask for a recorded vote.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to propose an amendment that after the word “appear” we add the phrase “at a special evening meeting of the committee”, so that this wouldn't distract from the existing schedule of the committee. Instead we would hold a special meeting on Wednesday evening to deal with this matter.

So after the word “appear” we would add the phrase “at a special evening meeting of the committee”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

So it would be “a special evening meeting of the committee”. Just to clarify that, I'm going to read it, starting with the third line: “...be instructed to appear at a special evening meeting of the committee on Wednesday, March 9, 2011”. Everything else is the same.

You've heard the amendment. I would now ask members to make brief comments about the amendment.

Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

We'd support that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay, let's vote on the amendment. I'm going to ask the clerk to conduct a recorded vote on the amendment only, not the motion.

We have a tied vote. The chair will support the amendment.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I am going to now ask the clerk to conduct a recorded vote on the motion as amended.

Again we have a tied vote. The chair will support the motion.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Chair, therefore I wish to move my motion, which is that the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics call member of Parliament Linda Duncan and member of Parliament and chair of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, the Honourable Shawn Murphy, to appear on Wednesday, March 9, 2011, as member of Parliament Kelly Block did when called; and that the purpose of the meeting be to examine the inappropriate use of parliamentary resources by their offices.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Abbott.

As should be obvious to everyone, I'm not going to preside as chair at the committee on this motion. I will ask Ms. Davidson to take the chair in my place.

There is a point of order from Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Before you leave the chair, I wonder if we can decide whether we're going to continue with our agenda and hear the presentation of the Commissioner of Official Languages and then proceed to consider this. Maybe you have to vacate the chair at this point....

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

This is the very same situation as the Easter motion. It will require consent. Mr. Abbott is within his rights to do that.

We'll suspend for a few minutes and ask Ms. Davidson to take the chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Patricia Davidson]

I call the meeting back to order.

Dr. Bennett, do you have something to say?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I want to know if this motion is in order. Does the clerk have any advice on that?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Patricia Davidson]

I have received some advice from the clerk, and I will ask the clerk to relay that advice.