Information & Ethics Committee on April 20th, 2010

[Karen Shepherd]

Well, it's done on a daily basis in terms of monitoring the media and other public information. You'll often see in articles that person X is lobbying either on a particular issue or.... So we will look at that in terms of determining whether, upon further analysis, the individual.... And as I indicated, 90% of them are actually registered. So that's the process we use.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Let me use an example. The parliamentary secretary seems to be out of the loop and I really think he should be in. Let me put it this way. Say an individual who is not a lobbyist, from ABC Company, comes to me with a wonderful project. If I walk across the aisle and talk to the Minister of State for Infrastructure, but the individual is not registered as a lobbyist, is that lobbying or is it not?

[Karen Shepherd]

Lobbying....

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

All of us are members of Parliament.

[Karen Shepherd]

Yes.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

When I go home this weekend I guarantee you a couple of people will be in my office saying they think they fit the criteria for the economic action plan--which is more propaganda than action, but that's another issue. In any event, they talk to me about this project. Are they lobbying?

So I talk to the minister or write a letter to the minister. Is the parliamentary secretary considered in the same light as I am? I'm sure people who go to a parliamentary secretary think they're getting greater access to the minister than if they go to a backbench MP or an opposition MP. But they're treated in the same light. Is that what you're telling me?

[Karen Shepherd]

As I said earlier, in looking at the definition of a public office holder, parliamentary secretaries are not designated public office holders.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I don't want to interrupt you, Mrs. Shepherd, but I am; my apologies. If that same individual talked to a project officer at ACOA or Western Economic Diversification, they would have to be registered as a lobbyist. It would have to be reported. There's some confusion here.

[Bruce Bergen]

There are a couple of different scenarios going on here. If your constituent is working on a project in their back shed and thinks it might have great application and might be just the sort of project that a government grant might assist with, they are not being paid to lobby. Their speaking with the member of Parliament would not be a registerable lobbying activity.

By the same token, if a person is simply seeking information on a grant program, to know how best to apply for the grant, what sort of material should be provided, and whether they should go to the bank first, that might very well fall into the exemption Mr. Rickford was asking about under paragraph 4(2)(c), requests for information. Simple requests for information are exempted from the lobbying requirements. That's another element.

It can be a complicated question about what is and isn't registerable activity.

By the same token, what you suggested about walking across the hall and speaking to the parliamentary secretary...members of Parliament speaking to one another is not a registerable lobbying activity. So there are complications.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

On the same point, I had a question about this from a reporter when I was coming out of a caucus meeting last week, so I want it clarified specifically. The Lobbying Act summary of requirements published in June 2008 defines lobbying activities as those that when carried out for compensation are considered to be lobbying. Is that the line?

[Karen Shepherd]

The individual must be paid, yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Is that the frontier between a civic engagement by an ordinary citizen and a registerable lobbying activity? Is that the line?

[Karen Shepherd]

That is one of the criteria. The individual must be paid in order for it to be a registerable activity.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

In cash or in kind...?

[Bruce Bergen]

The act doesn't say. The requirements are set out in the act. It's an interpretative guide designed to be of assistance to somebody who looks on the website, or to guide them in how they apply the act. It's Parliament that speaks in the act and tells us....

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I just want to add—I don't have a lot of time--would you say this is the line between civic engagement and registerable lobbying activities?

[Karen Shepherd]

Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Bergen, what is the protocol that determines whether or not your office turns an allegation over to the RCMP or investigates it internally?

[Bruce Bergen]

Well, I think the office is driven by what's in the act—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay, so what's in the act?

[Bruce Bergen]

The act clearly states that:

If, during an investigation...the Commissioner believes on reasonable grounds that a person has committed an offence under this or any other Act of Parliament...the Commissioner shall advise a peace officer having jurisdiction to investigate

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

All right, so it's not either/or. The turning over of information to the RCMP would follow an internal investigation to determine whether or not there was reasonable suspicion of a contravention.

[Bruce Bergen]

It would follow a determination by the commissioner that she has reasonable grounds to believe that an offence has been committed.