Evidence of meeting #8 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, but everybody is keeping an eye. I have one person dedicated to it. It's the one thing.... We're doing a lot even with 28 people. I have five investigators, or actually I'm in the process of staffing for one of them.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Do you think that one is sufficient, given what you've discovered in terms of your investigations? Is one individual sufficient to be delegated to that overall responsibility for it, even though there are others doing it?
11:55 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
In terms of what we have right now, in terms of what we're finding.... I mean, with the monitoring that we've done and with 90% of individuals actually being registered, it would seem it's a good use of resources right now.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
I appreciate the witnesses being here today. It's good to see you again, Bruce, and the commissioner as well. Thank you for your time.
I have a couple of technical questions, probably following from some of the ones that have been asked today. Our government introduced what I certainly will argue, and what could be argued, is the toughest anti-corruption law in Canadian history vis-à-vis the Federal Accountability Act. This introduced tough new reporting standards for lobbyists, and it required that they report to you, an independent commissioner of lobbying.
With that in mind, we sometimes hear that it's hard to define lobbyists. I think the act goes to some length to do that.
Do you have a definition of each kind of lobbyist that the act contemplates? I was wondering if you could share those definitions with the committee so we can understand the important technical distinctions that we're working through today and how they're interpreted.
Noon
Bruce Bergen Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The act doesn't contain a definition of lobbying per se. The activities that are registerable lobbying activities are set out in two sections in the act, section 5 and section 7.
Section 5 deals with consultant lobbyists. This is the term the act uses for people who are, in essence, professional lobbyists who take on clients and do registerable lobbying activities on their behalf.
Noon
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
They get paid, exactly.
Section 7 deals with corporations and organizations. There's a definition of organizations in the act that is very, very broad and is designed to include not-for-profit corporations, partnerships, all sorts of trusts, all sorts of unincorporated corporations that are not what are called share capital corporations, or for-profit corporations. It's a very broad capturing of lobbyists under those two categories.
The constituent elements for what are registered lobbying activities are set out in a number of paragraphs under subsection 5(1) and subsection 7(1). They are, as the commissioner mentioned earlier, communicating in relation to the making of an act or a regulation, the amendment of a policy, the seeking of a grant or financial benefit--a number of paragraphs.
For consultant lobbyists as well, there's the awarding of a contract by or on behalf of Her Majesty, or arranging a meeting between a public office holder and any other person. So that's different for these professional lobbyists.
I think the rationale seems clear that it's different for a person who is paid by a client to seek a meeting with a public office holder, or to seek a contract on behalf of a client, than if the corporation is obviously in the tendering process. That's not intended to be captured by section 7.
That's a long answer to a very short question.
Noon
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
No, it's a good answer. It's the kind of understanding that I think we want.
Commissioner, I've had a look at the website and I reviewed a few documents in an effort to understand the act better. Just for some certainty, could you provide examples of situations, or examples that do not require registration? That is, are there exceptions that exist?
I was wondering if you could give me examples and explain what they might be to this committee.
April 20th, 2010 / noon
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The act itself provides for a number of exemptions in terms of any oral or written submissions made to the committee, or the Senate--so appearances such as this--and any oral--
Noon
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It's (a), (b), and (c).
Noon
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It's any oral or written communication made by an individual or person or organization with respect to the enforcement or interpretation of the act. So, for example, someone who's even calling my office to get clarifications on the Lobbying Act or some of its interpretations is communicating with a public office holder, but they're doing so with something that's actually existing. Somebody who might call and is communicating with me to try to get me to change maybe one of my interpretation bulletins would then fall into the category of lobbying. That's the difference.
It's one of those things where...we've talked about the federal grants. While the activity is one that's registerable, when you actually get the federal grant, there may be things in there that require the individual to actually communicate with a public officer holder. So in order to be in compliance, they would have to communicate. At that point, it wouldn't be a registerable activity.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
So it's confined to a communication or restricted to a simple request for information then.
12:05 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That's (c).
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Madam Commissioner, gentlemen, good afternoon. It is a pleasure to have you here. Lobbying is an issue that people are not necessarily familiar with and that I was not that familiar with. We hear about it, of course, but I really appreciated your explanation, especially the clarification you gave in response to my colleague's question about what it is exactly.
Furthermore, it is clear that your staff is not sitting around twiddling its thumbs. They seem to be hard at work, because I can see from your report that you verified a huge number of people and reports, and carried out many reviews and even investigations. So, yes, I do think your people are hard at work, and that is good to know. However, there is something I really want to ask, but I do not want to offend you.
It is no secret that there are lobbyists in this Parliament who are duly registered and recognized but who make introductions for other lobbyists—lobbyists who are not duly registered or recognized and who are then able to meet with members of the Prime Minister's Office, if not the Prime Minister, himself. That is a weakness in the Lobbying Act. I want to know if you have heard about this situation and whether you plan to do anything to bring the situation under control, in accordance with the act. That is my first question.
12:05 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Generally speaking, I do not have an example of a case where a lobbyist arranged a meeting with someone, but the act is clear: it is incumbent upon the lobbyist to comply with the act. If you know of any examples, please tell me, because I take allegations....
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Ms. Shepherd, when I say it is no secret, I mean it is known within Parliament. That is something you hear within the House walls. Without necessarily naming a specific example, I think this is something you may want to look into because, in your report, you say you are going to continue “to invest significant resources to maintain and improve the Registry of Lobbyists.” This is a well-known occurrence.
On another note, your report on plans and priorities refers to bringing together the strategic planning and corporate functions under the responsibility of the new deputy commissioner. But you do not mention it in your report. You said that Mr. Leblanc—and I want to congratulate him on his appointment—will carry out administrative functions. But administrative functions and strategic planning are two things. So what will Mr. Leblanc work on exactly?
12:05 p.m.
René Leblanc Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The organization used to have two directors. One was mainly responsible for the registry, and the other for investigations. These individuals also had to carry out all corporate functions, human resources management, financial management and so forth, as well as a good chunk of awareness work in terms of the public and lobbyists. All of that is now my responsibility.
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That includes strategic planning.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
You have not done the strategic planning yet. I assume you have not started?
