Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses today, the Canadian Bar Association and Professor Hudon, for your very welcome contributions to this debate.
Notwithstanding our best efforts, even through the Federal Accountability Act, to tie a bell around lobbyists' necks in a more effective way, we continue to be frustrated by what we see as the undue influence of well-connected political/Conservative lobbyists, both registered and unregistered, which we believe continues to undermine our democracy. More and more, we see access and influence becoming marketable commodities on Parliament Hill, and we believe we are at the precipice of a slippery slope towards the American model, where nothing happens if you aren't accompanied by a well-connected expensive political lobbyist. So in spite of our best efforts, it still comes down to who you know in the PMO.
I'm very interested to hear the representation from the Canadian Bar Association or the recommendation urging or at least ratifying the plea of the lobbyist registrar that they must be allowed to assign penalties. I can't believe the RCMP has never found anything wrong with anything that anybody has even done on Parliament Hill associated with influence peddling.
The difference between influence peddling and lobbying is about five years in prison. Illegal lobbying, I should say. There is such a thing as legal lobbying.
I guess in the context of the presentations we've heard, and even with the recommendations made, how do we protect ourselves from somebody as unscrupulous as a Bruce Carson skulking around in the corridors of power, peddling influence in a completely illegal fashion, but apparently getting meetings with important people? Is there any amount of regulation or even legislation that can actually stop someone who is determined to break the law? It takes two to tango. You can't lobby illegally without a willing partner. Rahim Jaffer would have been wandering around like some lost sheep in the hallways had he not been able to actually get meetings with people to promote and advance his own initiatives.
Perhaps, Mr. Giorno, you can tell us, for the bar association, is there anything in your recommendations that would actually give us some satisfaction to put a stop to the Bruce Carsons of the world or to put a stop to the well-connected guys who work hard to elect a government and then immediately step back and start selling access to that government, like the John Reynolds and the Tim Powers, the Geoff Norquays and the Ken Boessenkools, and the Monte Solbergs? And all these guys who aren't even registered as lobbyists but who are peddling influence on Parliament HIll with a preliminary phone call to open the door.... If you've still got the key to the PMO, maybe you shouldn't be selling access on Parliament Hill.
Is there any satisfaction in the recommendations that you have brought before us today that would lead us to believe that we can stop this kind of quasi-criminal activity, even if the RCMP won't prosecute?