Evidence of meeting #4 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Chad Mariage

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

We're no longer in camera. We're going to open the doors.

There was a request by the media late last night to televise this broadcast. Chad worked hard last night and this morning to try to make that possible. We just talked to communications services and as of right now they're unable to televise this. Is that correct, Chad? There will be audio feed, and of course the doors are open so that media can be here.

The request was received at 7 p.m. on the night before committee. We tried and we were unable to do it, just so committee members are aware.

Before we get into the actual witnesses, I'm going to suggest to committee members a couple of guiding principles I've seen work in other committees. First, when we are studying a topic, there should be some attempt, as we go through the witness list, to allow for as much flexibility as possible when we are booking witnesses, because not everyone's going to be available or available on the dates that you want. Second, we should allow the clerk as much discretion as possible to invite a broad range of witnesses to allow for diversity on the topic we're studying, because the best studies I've seen are the ones for which we get a diversity of views in front of us as opposed to a one-track view.

Mr. Angus.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I'd like to ask my honourable colleagues something. I don't have a problem studying issues of access to information, because that's the business of our committee. I am concerned that we have an October 18 court date regarding CBC's access to information request. This is before the courts now. The Information Commissioner did speak the other day about her unwillingness to speak more about this as it was before the courts. I'm not suggesting that we wait till the court renders its decision, although I think doing so would be prudent in most cases. I understand my colleagues in the Conservative Party certainly want to get at the CBC as quickly as they can. But in the interests of respecting the dual roles--our role as a quasi-judicial body as a committee and the fact that this is going before the courts--I'd ask my honourable colleague from the Conservative Party if we can begin these hearings right after October 18. That way we're not seen as interfering in any way with what's happening in the courts, and I think we'll have more respect.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

Mr. Del Mastro.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

First of all, I see that Hubert Lacroix is on my witness list. I thought I saw him on the Liberal list as well. I would suggest, to begin with, that Mr. Lacroix and perhaps the Information Commissioner be called last to these hearings. It looks as though we will have several meetings to discuss this matter. It would appear that, given the Thanksgiving week break, that should achieve what Mr. Angus is discussing. But most of the others on this list have nothing to do with the court case, as a matter of fact. They're not directly involved in the court case. Testimony brought here is not admissible in that case.

So I think the balance of the concerns are unwarranted. I have a lot of faith in our judiciary to be unbiased as to what's happening on Parliament Hill and what's before them in the court.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Thank you for the comment.

You raise one point, which I think is important, as to the length and study and breadth of what we're looking into. How many days do committee members imagine will be required for this motion to be studied? Is it two? Is it three? Where are we at?

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Why don't we determine what the final witness list is going to look like and then we'll determine what's appropriate?

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Okay.

Mr. Angus.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you.

My understanding from my honourable colleague is that he wants to begin before. Is that what he's telling me?

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Well, we do have a motion, which I'm going to bring later in the meeting, Mr. Angus, that would take precedence over this study and would probably take the next two meetings. Then we would have a single meeting and then the Thanksgiving week break. Then the clerk can talk about scheduling. But this would likely commence, I would expect, next week and then resume after the Thanksgiving week break.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Mr. Angus.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I said this at the beginning. I am very concerned about this committee being seen to interfere with the independence of the courts, particularly if they're calling a judge before us, which I think is a ridiculous suggestion. I don't think any judge would ever show up before one of our committees.

I'm not interested in turning this into a circus. If my colleague is willing to wait till October 18, then we will move forward with all of the witness list. But if he's attempting to move on it before that , and if he says it's a case of one meeting, then we are still stepping on the jurisdiction of the court.

I just want to be clear. We have to deal with the Information Commissioner, and we still have to deal with the Ethics Commissioner--or the Privacy Commissioner. I'm losing track of all my commissioners here.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

It's easy to do.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

We're going to have Mr. Del Mastro's motion on the NDP. If he's willing to wait until October 18, then he's not going to have any difficulties from our side in dealing with the CBC access to information request.

These are early days in our committee. We're going to be together for a long time, folks.

Dean, your hair is going to be grey by the time this committee is done, so I'm saying that we can either work in some cooperative fashion, recognizing our intense differences, or we can get off on the wrong foot. So I'm asking him to wait.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

That suggestion has been put forward. We have two competing suggestions here.

Mr. Del Mastro is suggesting that we have a couple of witnesses for a couple of days perhaps, and then move into something else and come back to this.

Mr. Angus, you're asking to wait until October 18 to commence.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

October 18, yes.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Mr. Del Mastro.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would simply point out to Mr. Angus that I understand his concerns, but I'd say they're unfounded. The facts of the case before the court, which I think Parliament needs to hear about, are what will be brought here before this committee. The committee is not going to be rendering any decision ahead of the case going to the court. But I would think, for example, that Mr. Angus might want to know why the public broadcaster is going to court with the Information Commissioner on October 18. Why has that happened? What is the backdrop to that? What is the information they can't get? Why are our taxpayers literally paying to fight taxpayers? This is a federal government body fighting a public broadcaster. I think this is something it behooves our committee to look at. I think it's important, but we're not going to prejudice what will occur on October 18.

With respect to the judge who has been called, I'd like to hear from him about his decision. I think it's entirely appropriate to bring him in to discuss what his findings were. Judges are servants of the public; they uphold our laws. This specific judge has looked at all the evidence before him and has rendered a decision. I think it's important that the committee hears about that decision and why he came to it.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Monsieur Dusseault.

9 a.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

You are right that this is important and we should talk about it. However, if we discuss it here before the court has even had a chance to hear from the parties, I think that we would be jeopardizing judicial independence. That could influence the ruling. It is important to maintain judicial independence, which would be compromised if we were to discuss the matter here.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Thank you very much.

Are there any other comments about this?

Mr. Angus, go ahead.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

The issue of the sub judice limitations on our committee and respect for the courts is a fundamental parliamentary procedure. It has been ruled upon time and time again that:

It is accepted practice that, in the interests of justice and fair play, certain restrictions should be placed on the freedom of Members of Parliament to make reference in the course of debate to matters awaiting judicial decisions, and that such matters should not be the subject of motions or questions in the House.

This is ultimately a decision that is referred to the Speaker. Furthermore:

The acceptance of a restriction is a voluntary restraint on the part of the House to protect an accused person or other party to a court action or judicial inquiry from suffering any prejudicial effect from public discussion of the issue.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Slow down just a little bit for the translators.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Sorry. I will begin again.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Nathan Cullen

Maybe not.... Okay.

9 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I'll start again, just so that we're all clear here:

There are other limitations to the privilege of freedom of speech, most notably the sub judice (“under the consideration of a judge or court of record”) convention. It is accepted practice that, in the interests of justice and fair play, certain restrictions should be placed on the freedom of Members of Parliament to make reference in the course of debate to matters awaiting judicial decisions, and that such matters should not be the subject of motions or questions in the House. Though loosely defined, the interpretation of this convention is left to the Speaker. The word “convention” is used as no “rule” exists to prevent Parliament from discussing a matter which is sub judice. The acceptance of a restriction is a voluntary restraint on the part of the House to protect an accused person or other party to a court action or judicial inquiry from suffering any prejudicial effect from public discussion of the issue. While certain precedents exist for the guidance of the Chair, no attempt has ever been made to codify the practice in the House of Commons.

The sub judice convention is important in the conduct of business in the House. It protects the rights of interested parties before the courts, and preserves and maintains the separation and mutual respect between the legislature and the judiciary. The convention ensures that a balance is created between the need for a separate, impartial judiciary and free speech.

The practice has evolved so that it is the Speaker who decides what jurisdiction the Chair has over matters sub judice. In 1977, the First Report of the Special Committee on the Rights and Immunities of Members recommended that the imposition of the convention should be done with discretion and, when there was any doubt in the mind of the Chair, a presumption should exist in favour of allowing debate and against the application of the convention. Since the presentation of the report, Speakers have followed these guidelines while using discretion.

It says further:

During debate, restrictions are placed on the freedom of Members of Parliament to make reference to matters awaiting judicial decisions in order to avoid possible prejudice to the participants in the courts. This self-restraint recognizes the courts, as opposed to the House, as the proper forum in which to decide individual cases. Matters before the courts are also prohibited as subjects of debate, motions or questions in the House. While precedents exist for the guidance of the Chair, no attempt has ever been made to codify the practice known as the “sub judice convention”.

The sub judice convention is first and foremost a voluntary exercise of restraint on the part of the House to protect an accused person, or other party to a court action or judicial inquiry, from any prejudicial effect of public discussion of the issue. Secondly, the convention also exists, as Speaker Fraser noted, “to maintain a separation and mutual respect between legislative and judicial branches of government”.

There are some situations in which the application of the sub judice convention is fairly straightforward. The convention has been applied consistently to motions, references in debates, questions and supplementary questions and in all matters relating to criminal cases.

The convention does not apply to legislation....If the sub judice convention were to apply to bills, the whole legislative process could be stopped....

No distinction has ever been made in Canada between criminal courts and civil courts for the purpose of applying the sub judice convention, and it has also had application to certain tribunals other than courts of law. The convention exists to guarantee everyone a fair trial and to prevent any undue influence prejudicing a judicial decision or a report of a tribunal of inquiry.

I would like to repeat that line, as I think it is the crucial line here:

The convention exists to guarantee everyone a fair trial and to prevent any undue influence prejudicing a judicial decision or a report of a tribunal of inquiry. Indeed, in the view of the Special Committee on the Rights and Immunities of Members, “prejudice is most likely to occur in respect of criminal cases and civil cases of defamation where juries are involved”.

Where criminal cases are concerned, the precedents are consistent in barring reference to such matters before judgement has been rendered and during any appeal. Members are expected to refrain from discussing matters that are before a criminal court, not only in order to protect those persons who are undergoing trial and stand to be affected whatever its outcome, but also because the trial could be affected by debate in the House. It has been established that the convention would cease to apply, as far as criminal cases are concerned, when judgement has been rendered. The Speaker has confirmed that a matter becomes sub judice again if an appeal is entered following a judgement.

The precedents are not [quite] as consistent where civil cases are concerned.... However, in 1976, the Speaker ruled that no restriction ought to exist on the right of any Member to put questions...particularly those relating to a civil matter, unless and until that matter is at least at trial. Although nothing resembling a settled practice has developed in relation to civil cases, the Chair has warned on various occasions of the need for caution in referring to matters pending judicial decisions whatever the nature of the court.

In the court of record in commissions and inquiries,

from the precedents, it is clear that the application of the convention is limited to tribunals designated by statute as courts of record.

A court of record [for my colleagues] is defined as follows: “A court that is required to keep a record of its proceedings.... [The court's records are presumed accurate] and cannot be collaterally impeached. [And too, it is a court] that may fine and imprison [people for contempt]. The sub judice convention does not apply...to matters referred to royal commissions, although the Chair has cautioned against making reference to proceedings, evidence, or findings of a royal commission before it has made its report.

The Role of the Speaker

Since the sub judice convention is not codified...the jurisdiction of the Speaker in such matters [has been] difficult to outline. The Speaker's discretionary authority over matters sub judice derives from his or her role as guardian of free speech in the House. The Chair has the duty to balance the rights of the House with the rights and interests of the ordinary citizen undergoing trial. Indeed, the Speaker [intervenes] in exceptional cases only where it [appears likely] that to do otherwise would be harmful.... The problem facing a Speaker is that determining when a comment will have a tendency to influence is speculative business—it cannot be done until after the remarks [are] made.

In its inquiry, the Special Committee on the Rights and Immunities of Members recommended that when there is doubt in the mind of the Chair, a presumption should exist in favour of allowing debate and against the application of the convention. The Committee concluded that while there can be no substitute for the discretion of the Chair, in the last resort all Members of the House should share the responsibility of exercising restraint when it seems called for. A Member who feels...there could be a risk of causing prejudice in referring [matters] to a particular case...should refrain from raising the matter. Further...a Member who calls for the suppression—