Evidence of meeting #5 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Eppo Maertens  Acting Assistant Commissioner, Learning and Communications, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé  Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Thank you.

We will now move to Mr. Del Mastro, please, for seven minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Dawson, Ms. Robinson-Dalpé, and Mr. Maertens for appearing this morning.

Ms. Dawson, you said last year you received 1,600 calls, 500 directly from members of Parliament, to seek your guidance on whether or not what they were doing would be in accordance with the law. Can you tell me, did any member of the NDP call you prior to accepting tens of thousands of dollars of direct union sponsorship for their convention?

9:05 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I'd have to turn to Ms. Robinson-Dalpé, and I'm not even sure she would know that because we have advisers assigned to all the individual members. I'm sure that NDP members have called.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

So that wouldn't have been part of your investigation, to see if they called you first to see if accepting tens of thousands of dollars in union sponsorship would in fact be appropriate?

9:05 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Not at this stage.

I should elaborate on those calls too. That is an amalgam of calls saying what section applies or asking when they have to get their stuff in, right up to very complex questions. Those are just the calls we've received.

We do have advisers assigned to each member.

Lyne, do you want to add anything to that?

9:05 a.m.

Lyne Robinson-Dalpé Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Basically, most of the calls we get are in some cases referred to as calls with regard to the acceptance of gifts and invitations and things like that.

In the case of a conference that would be sponsored or supported by their political parties, unfortunately most of them would not even know there would be a gift attached to that or something like that. I don't recall any particular requests made at that time.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Okay. It's pretty clear, at least to your recollection, that the NDP never called prior to accepting tens of thousands of dollars of illegal donations toward their--

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Sorry, that's a point of order, Mr. Del Mastro.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Are you making a point of order, Mr. Angus?

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Yes, I'm making a point of order.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Then you do it through the chair, please.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

You have no ability to say it was illegal.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Mr. Angus, make your point of order through the chair, please.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Chair, I'm asking him to withdraw that comment. He has no ability to say it was illegal. If he wants to say it's illegal, he can go and talk to the media about that, but that is turning what is a bit of a farce in general into a total farce. I would ask him to retract that comment.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Mr. Del Mastro.

September 29th, 2011 / 9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

I'm sorry if it frustrates you, Mr. Angus, but Mr. Martin was a part of the Accountability Act hearings--Bill C-2--and said that perhaps the greatest thing the 39th Parliament could deliver to Canadians would be--

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson

Okay. This is becoming debate. It is not a point of order.

Continue, Mr. Del Mastro.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Yes, I recall that back in 2006 that Mr. Martin indicated to Canadians that perhaps the greatest thing we could deliver from the 39th Parliament would be accountability, but now we see that the NDP has forgotten about that, because if we read the story in Le Devoir of September 22, they revealed that the NDP received at least $85,000 from big labour unions. That's just three unions that admitted they gave money, but we see that the USW, the UFCW, Stratcom, PSAC--the Public Service Alliance of Canada--CUPE, the IAFF, the machinists union, and Thistle Printing, were all sponsors. We only know three of them. We know that it's a minimum of $85,000 that they received.

I thought it was pretty clear in the Elections Canada Act that you can't take money from corporations and you can't take it from unions. I thought that's what was established, so this is unquestionably an egregious violation.

Now, the New Democratic Party has “new” in their name, but they're not new. They've been around for about 50 years. They've just been in fourth party status for a while, so perhaps nobody paid any attention to them, but when you flaunt the law this badly and you challenge it, and in fact you've stepped outside the Elections Act and what's permissible for parties for donations twice in three months, you're going to get some attention for that.

My question to you is...the members who are members of Parliament who were involved in the organization of this party convention, if they have in fact accepted union donations contrary to the Elections Act, don't you think this would place them in a position where they could potentially be beholden to these unions? Isn't that part of why your office exists? To make sure there are no outside undue influences...?

9:10 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

You know, I've said that I wasn't going to discuss this case any further. I believe Elections Canada is the appropriate place for where most of these questions can be asked. I have no evidence of particular activities with respect to particular members.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

But if I could, Ms. Dawson.... The reason why you're concerned when members of Parliament or public office holders receive gifts--gifts in general--is that those gifts, I would assume you feel, would affect the impartiality of a member on any given issue. You could in fact look at it and say, well, now they could potentially have a conflict of interest because they're accepting gifts from a third party. Is that not right?

9:10 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

There is in the definition of the term “benefit”.... I would just draw it to your attention. It's interesting because this was an amendment made a year or two ago, which excludes benefits received from a riding association or a political party from the definition of benefit or gift. It's interesting, because previously it expressly included them, but all of a sudden now it doesn't include them, so there's a threshold to get beyond right there that's difficult.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Okay.

9:10 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I just draw that particular provision to your attention.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Right, but I don't think that receiving $25,000, $35,000, $50,000, or however much any one of these large unions would have paid to the NDP and to its leadership for hosting this.... I don't think that would be considered a gift from the party. It'd be a gift to the party, all of which are contrary to the Canada Elections Act, and all of which were done, to my understanding, without calling your office to see if it was acceptable--

9:10 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

But I don't have any jurisdiction over the party as such.