Evidence of meeting #5 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
September 29th, 2011 / 10 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No.
Two of the them are in the public domain. I can mention those. One is Mr. Paradis and one is Mr. Carson.
Liberal
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's a mixture.
Oh, all three of them are self-initiated.
Liberal
Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL
Okay.
Do you suspect that there will be a report out within a year?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I hope so. I fervently hope so.
Liberal
Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL
Getting back to information you just alluded to, in your recent report, the Helena Guergis report, there were a couple of things I found quite disturbing. You kind of alluded to it. I'll ask you a couple of questions.
One of the things you said in this report is:
It appeared, at times, that these witnesses were not entirely forthcoming, but were possibly influenced by a desire to protect another person.
How can you do your job when our system allows for that to happen? If people aren't forthcoming, it's to protect someone else. How do you manage to be able to conduct your investigation?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's one of the challenges. Of course, our obligation is to weigh the credibility of various witnesses.
Did you want to add something, Eppo?
Acting Assistant Commissioner, Learning and Communications, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We interview many, many witnesses. We gather up documents. You'll see in the report also that, despite having some of these difficulties, we were able to come to a conclusion and we were able to get the facts we needed. Witness testimonies are only one part of the investigation we do. We interview many witnesses.
Liberal
Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL
Another comment in the report is that you didn't receive all the documents you needed after Mrs. Guergis lawyered up. Then everything was vented through her lawyer. Did you not have access to all the documentation for you to do your job?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, I'm not saying they didn't give us everything they got. I'm saying that there may have been a problem in the number of documents that were retrieved in the House of Commons system. I had to go through.... The documents are in the possession of the House of Commons, the e-mails and things, and my understanding is that some documents slipped through the net--that are kept in the House of Commons--so I can't say where the slip-up was. I have no reason to think that Ms. Guergis withheld anything.
Liberal
Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL
But in reading your report, she received the documents and then only gave you the ones that she wanted to—
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, she vetted them, but I have no way of knowing whether she kept any or not. I can't tell. That's part of the problem. I'd rather get them directly.
Liberal
Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL
Yes. So in this vetting process that they did, do you feel there were some things that you did not get?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, the reason why I knew we didn't get some was that we got some from other sources that should have come out from this search.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Patricia Davidson
Thank you very much, Mr. Andrews.
We will now move to our last speaker.
Mr. Mayes, please.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thanks to you, Commissioner, and to your team for being here today.
I'm new to this committee. One of the concerns I've had, just looking from outside in at what you do in your file, is the tendency or the opportunity that a member might have to make some sort of outrageous statement about a conflict of interest of another member that is politically motivated and then file it with you, with a photocopy going to the media.
Quite frankly, you're tried and convicted before you have an opportunity to really deal with the accusation. It's troubling for me, because in this place here, unfortunately, personal attacks and character assassination are quite common. I think it's disturbing to Canadians.
I know this might be a difficult question for you, but can you see any way we can change things that would help to deter that kind of conduct by members? We want to be open and transparent, but we also want to be fair and just. Could you give me any suggestions on any ways you could see that could be incorporated in what you do that would make it transparent, I think, but also just?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. I like the question.
For one thing, I think MPs should refrain from making public the fact that they've sent me a complaint until I've received it, reacted to it, and acquainted the person who's being accused or who the contravention is claimed against with it. I think there should be some kind of prohibition against letting that information out before there have been some steps taken.
The other thing is that I'm not allowed to state my reasons for not investigating. I'm under total confidentiality. It would be very convenient to be able to explain why a particular matter was not investigated. I don't have that power either.
Those are two things.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
I appreciate that. I've had contact with your office over an issue and I have to say that it was handled very professionally and very fairly, but I had already been attacked in the media over it. It was unfortunate. That is a concern.
I like your answer. Will you be making that recommendation to the government as far as any future amendments to the scope of what you do are concerned?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, it would...I think I've said it in some other places publicly as well. I've told the procedure committee that. They're the ones who look after the code.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay. If it were enacted so that a person couldn't disclose that file or that complaint prior to you dealing with the complaint, could you see that there would be penalties, possibly, and—
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. That would be a good case for a penalty, and that would be a substantive breach, rather than just a notice-level breach.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Because it's a known breach of the confidentiality and the regulations that are to be followed.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's right.
Conservative