Evidence of meeting #64 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was something.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Nancy Bélanger  General Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

3:30 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the 64th hearing of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Today, we have with us three representatives from the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, the commissioner, Ms. Dawson, and her two assistants, Ms. Robinson-Dalpé and Ms. Bélanger. We thank them for being here with us. As you know, we were unable to meet with them during a previous meeting. We are pleased to have them with us today.

As usual, there will be a 10-minute presentation. There will be time for questions and comments from the members of the committee afterwards. We are continuing our review of the Conflict of Interest Act.

Without any further ado, I will give the floor to Ms. Dawson, who has 10 minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Mary Dawson Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the committee for inviting me to appear before you today. With me this afternoon are Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, and Nancy Bélanger, General Counsel.

I am pleased to contribute to the five-year review of the Conflict of Interest Act. This is an excellent opportunity to explore how well the act is working and ways in which it might be strengthened.

As the committee is aware, I was previously scheduled to appear before you on January 30, and had provided the committee with a written submission recommending various changes to the act. Although my appearance was rescheduled, the submission was made public on my office website, with the approval of the chair.

The committee has already heard from some witnesses who have commented on my recommendations, and I'm pleased to have this opportunity to discuss them with you myself.

My written submission reflects my five years of experience in administering the act and the conflict of interest code for members; it is therefore comprehensive and quite detailed. It includes a large number of recommendations, based on a thorough analysis of the act and its administration. However, I do not mean to suggest by the number of recommendations I have made that the regime is not at its core functioning relatively well.

The format of my submission mirrors the structure of the act, but my presentation today will be more thematic. I want to talk about eight broad priority areas that are supported by many of my individual recommendations.

The first priority area involves increasing transparency around gifts and other advantages through increased disclosure and public declaration. There's a fairly common misconception that a gift's value determines its acceptability under the act. In fact, an acceptability test applies in all cases, irrespective of the value. Public office holders are prohibited from accepting any gifts that may reasonably be seen to have been given to influence them. According to the act, the value of the gift is simply a threshold for public declaration by reporting public office holders. Acceptable gifts worth $200 or more must be disclosed to my office and publicly declared. I recommended lowering the $200 threshold for disclosure to the commissioner to a minimal amount and requiring that all disclosed gifts that relate to a public office holder's position be publicly declared.

A second priority area involves strengthening the post-employment provisions by introducing reporting obligations for public office holders during their cooling-off period after they leave public office. I recommend requiring former public office holders to report to the commissioner any firm offers of employment received during their cooling-off period, including offers of service contracts, appointments to boards of directors, and partnerships—which is an increase from the current rule—and to report on their duties and responsibilities in relation to their new employment.

The third and fourth priority areas involve narrowing the act's overly broad prohibitions against engaging in outside activities and holding controlled assets. With limited exceptions, the act prohibits reporting public office holders from engaging in a range of outside activities. I've seen cases where restricting some of these activities goes beyond the purposes of the act. I propose that the commissioner be given discretion to grant an exception from the general prohibition in such cases if the activities in question are not incompatible with the reporting public office holder's official duties.

With respect to controlled assets, I recommend that the broad prohibition against holding these assets be restricted to those who have a significant amount of decision-making power or access to privileged information, such as ministers, ministers of state, parliamentary secretaries, chiefs of staff, and deputy ministers. The prohibition, and its related requirement to divest, would only apply to all the other reporting public office holders if holding the controlled assets would constitute a risk of a conflict of interest.

A fifth priority area involves establishing some disclosure and public reporting requirements for non-reporting public office holders in relation to outside activities, recusals, gifts, and other advantages. However, I would not go so far as to recommend that we require them to make the initial disclosure of their assets and liabilities. I believe that introducing some limited reporting obligations would help to ensure compliance with the act.

A sixth priority area involves addressing misinformation put into the public domain in relation to investigative work. I generally refrain from making public comments about an ongoing examination, choosing instead to correct any misinformation once the examination is completed and a report is issued. However, if I do not conduct an examination, or if I discontinue an examination without issuing a report, I do not necessarily have an opportunity to correct the public record. I therefore recommend that the commissioner be given express authority to comment where appropriate, especially to correct misinformation.

A seventh priority area involves extending the administrative monetary penalties provisions to cover obvious breaches of the act's substantive provisions. At present, penalties may only be imposed for failures to meet certain reporting deadlines. I note that of all my recommendations, penalties have received the most attention to date. I'd like to clarify that I am proposing the extension of the administrative monetary penalties regime as a means of dealing with some substantive contraventions under the same expedited process that exists for procedural contraventions where an examination under the act is not warranted, generally because the facts are clear and undisputed. I'm also suggesting that for cases where the commissioner undertakes an examination and finds that a contravention of the act has occurred, consideration be given to whether penalties should be imposed as a result of that finding. I recognize that there are differences of opinion on whether it's necessary or desirable to impose penalties in such cases. My view is that issuing a public report in which a contravention is found is itself a significant adverse result and that the imposition of monetary penalties is not necessary.

An eighth and final priority area involves harmonizing the act and the members' code to ensure consistency of language and processes where appropriate. Although the two regimes have similar provisions, there are substantive and procedural differences between them. Those differences have led to a lack of clarity for individuals who are subject to both regimes—namely, members who are also ministers or parliamentary secretaries. For example, I recommend harmonizing the processes for launching an investigation. Unlike the code, which provides for a preliminary review stage before an inquiry is launched, the act requires me to launch an examination immediately upon receiving a written request for investigation from a senator or a member. I propose that the act also provide for a preliminary review of examination requests so that the commissioner can determine whether an examination is warranted before proceeding.

As the members' code is also under review by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, it would appear to be timely to examine both instruments for opportunities to harmonize the two regimes.

Mr. Chair, these and other recommendations that I have presented for the committee's consideration seek to increase the act's effectiveness in preventing conflicts between public and private interests.

I believe that my recommendations would help to clarify the rules, ensure transparency and fairness, and above all, strengthen the means by which the act's objectives might be achieved. I hope that the committee will see fit to recommend that Parliament adopt some or all of them.

I will be happy to answer the committee's questions.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you for your presentation.

I will now give the floor to our first speaker, Mr. Angus, for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you for coming, Madam Dawson. We very much appreciate your presence here in helping us to wade through some of these issues and to get a sense of where we need to tighten up, if we need to tighten up, and where things are working. Then it's a question of what is appropriate in judging the problems and consequences.

I'm interested in the issue—you didn't mention it—of fundraising rules. Clearly, one of the ways that someone can benefit is through political fundraising. That is to me one of the most obvious direct connections between asking you to do something and helping you out—political fundraising.

Now I see that you want to drop the value of gifts to $30. I don't mind that, but people drop books off at my office all the time. It might be months before I even notice. I've gone into my constituency office and it's in a back drawer. Am I really being politically enticed by that $30 book? Maybe it's a $25 book. You seem to think this needs to be dealt with, but what about political fundraising? What do you recommend there?

3:40 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Fundraising is a very awkward area. There is a fundraising prohibition now in the act, but it's only if there's a conflict-of-interest situation. I think I've recommended that the fundraising should be tightened up, and that there should be some increased higher-level rules for fundraising. I'm not saying exactly what, but it could go so far as to prohibit public office holders from being involved in fundraising at all.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Not to try to make things politically impossible for people, but someone might donate to my riding association and I might not even notice who they are or even know which corporate interest they represent. Later on, they might come to my office and ask me to write a letter. That can happen, and I don't think it's fair that MPs should be smacked for that.

We had the issue with Mr. Calandra, where there were two fundraisers, both with many people tied to licences that were competing.... He was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Heritage. He had to give $5,000 back, but you didn't rule in that case.

Is that an example, or was it okay?

3:40 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I can't discuss specific cases, but I did take a look at that and I did not find any reason to believe that this provision, section 16, had been contravened. I should mention that section 16 refers to personal fundraising, so if money is given to your riding association and you don't know about it, that's not a problem.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

If the guys from 89.1 FM, or whatever, had sent Mr. Calandra a couple of books, that could have been buying his interest, but $5,000 in a fundraiser wasn't going to influence him?

3:40 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

In another context I have made comments where I'm suggesting that entities be included as well as persons when you're benefiting. I think this would go some way to answering the question about riding associations.

With respect to the books, I picked $30 because it seemed to me one could assume that if something was under $30 it probably wouldn't be seen to have influenced you. But it could be $50, or whatever one thought was sensible. There's a frustration there: I've heard it constantly that people think it's not a problem if it's under the reporting amount, which is $200. I think there could be gifts that are problematic at $100 or $50.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I don't have a problem. I keep all the snow globes and pens and blankets in a box, and I give them out to people afterwards. I guess to me the issue of riding associations is the most obvious direct political benefit that any politician has. I don't know if anything is clearer. Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm interested in your issue of administrative monetary penalties and when they should be used. If someone's late in reporting, is that an automatic administrative monetary penalty, or would you look at the situation?

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I have discretion as to whether I impose a monetary penalty or not. The way I have generally been administering the act...because of the illogicality of imposing penalties for failures to meet deadlines but not being able to impose penalties for actual contraventions in certain cases, I have generally applied the administrative monetary penalty only when it's been associated with something that contravenes the act.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

You're saying “substantive”. If something is obvious, you want to be able to provide an administrative monetary penalty. What would you define as a substantive breach that we could understand? I think we need some clarity on that.

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I'm suggesting that because I think it would be another expedited process to deal with things without going through a long investigation. The example I would think of is purchasing controlled assets that you're not allowed to hold. It's pretty evident that you've either purchased them or you haven't, so there's not much deliberating to be done. In cases like that, or if somebody's participating in outside activities, for example, that they definitely should not be, another process to use, rather than a full examination, would be an administrative procedure.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

A question I also have is in terms of the role.... We had this recently with Mr. Flaherty and his writing a letter on behalf of a commercial interest to a semi-independent tribunal, where clearly that's not allowed as a cabinet minister. But the House leader was basically saying that Mr. Flaherty was actually acting as an MP.

Does a cabinet minister get to take off his cabinet minister's hat and then say, “I'm just doing this as an MP“? Which rule applies here, the MP rule or the cabinet rule?

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I think the cabinet rule applies.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you very much.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you, Mr. Angus. Your time is up.

I now give the floor to Mr. Warkentin for seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Thank you very much.

I appreciate your coming back, Commissioner. We appreciate your testimony today in our efforts to clarify your recommendations.

I'll just follow up where Mr. Angus left off, as it relates to MP versus minister. It seems to me that it's difficult for a minister or a parliamentary secretary to advocate on behalf of their constituents in a situation where there might be an expansion of the act that would now specify that that entity be enlarged.

I wonder if you've given any consideration to the difficulty for a parliamentary secretary or a minister as it relates to municipalities or first nations communities within their jurisdiction. It seems to me that an entity would describe a business interest, but a public sector interest as well. I wonder if you have given any thought as it would relate to that.

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Well, the decision I came to was simply that a minister and a parliamentary secretary should not be trying to influence the outcome of a decision-making body. That's as far as I have gone.

I've—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Pardon me. When you're talking about a decision-making body, that would include the cabinet or a minister's department, I suspect?

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

No, it's more a decision-making tribunal.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Do you believe that's absolutely clear within the changes you're proposing?

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Yes.

The entity is in a couple of different.... I'm not sure quite how that relates to the question you're asking.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Well, my concern is that it's one thing to advocate on behalf of another individual; it's another thing to advocate on behalf of somebody's business. But an entity might also be a municipality or a school board, charity, church, or some of the things we would expect that members of Parliament would advocate on behalf of, regardless of their role.

I wonder, do we risk limiting their capacity to do their job as an elected member of Parliament?

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

The rule is with respect to third parties—not family and not the member—only when it's improper, and that's where a decision has to be taken. I would say it's improper to do that to a decision-making tribunal, but I would not necessarily say it was improper with respect to other causes. It's a question of a case-by-case determination.

I think it's quite clear that it's improper for a decision-making tribunal. That's been a long-standing understanding.