Information & Ethics Committee on March 4th, 2013

[Karen Shepherd]

It's a fairly big task. I think you're right that there are a number of activities, but it's in looking at situations. Again, that's why I look at some of the broadest definitions because it's what a reasonable person would say in seeing a situation. I think that's where the court decision came in. So if it were individual who was actively working on a fundraising campaign and then lobbying the department or the minister in question, I would say there's a reasonable issue there and that maybe there's an apparent conflict. It doesn't mean there's a real conflict. The real conflict is a demonstrated interference. That is why the court came out saying in March 2009 that if you just look at real conflicts of interest, the bar's too high. So there is something to looking at apparent conflict of interest as well.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Calkins talked about the value or threshold for gifts. It's at $200 and there's a suggestion by the commissioner to lower that to $30.

I want to give you an example of a lobby group and a public office holder and how this can be a real challenge. The Canadian dairy association members always hold their meetings here in Ottawa. They invite MPs to join them for dinner at the Chateau, and it's not cheap—I would say even reaching the $200 threshold. Yet they're an organization, and so I feel they are lobbyists. They're getting paid indirectly as directors for the cost of those trips here and whatnot. Yet it would be unreasonable for me not be there, given that I have dairy farmers in my area. But there isn't a time that I sit with them when they don't talk about supply management. This is the difficulty I'm having. I think they have a right to express their views and I don't think the dinner I enjoy with them and the time out is unduly challenging my decision-making.

Those are the kinds of things that create difficulties when we put rules in place. Are these going to put restrictions on accessibility and free dialogue with constituents or organizations that have particular issues they want to bring forward to their elected representative?

[Karen Shepherd]

As I've said in the past, lobbying is a legitimate activity. I think we've talked about the fact, or I've said and you have said at committee today as well, that we don't want government and decision-makers operating in a vacuum.

That said, does the lobbying and communicating have to occur over a really nice dinner? What some lobbyists have said to me is that public office holders are paying for those dinners so there is no gift or conflict. You're still at the dinner, but if I were looking at it, the lobbyist isn't placing you in a conflict. It would be more difficult if they lobbied you during that particular dinner, because they're probably registered and they would have to register that encounter. The issue is that by giving the gift of a ticket—and that's a case I'd have to look at—are they creating an apparent conflict of interest, let alone a real conflict?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

I want to thank the two witnesses from the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying, including Commissioner Shepherd, for coming to meet with us today.

As for the committee members, we will see each other next Wednesday to continue this statutory review and consider the draft report.

Once again, I want to thank you for participating in today's meeting.

We will adjourn until next Wednesday.

Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.