Evidence of meeting #70 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reporting.
A video is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL
You mentioned criminal and major contraventions. We have had that suggested to us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the witness implied that it does apply to other public servants—criminal in nature—but it doesn't apply to us.
5 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Sorry, I missed that.
5 p.m.
Liberal
5 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
5 p.m.
Liberal
5 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Oh, yes, but the criminal offences are dealt with by full courts, not by commissioners like me. I think there's a question as to who ought to be dealing with it, if something is made into an actual criminal level offence.
5 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Should we be what—?
5 p.m.
Liberal
5 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I'm not promoting that. I'm not pushing for that. I think the important thing in an act like the one I'm administering is the public.... I'm a great believer in transparency in public reporting.
There are issues around what happens when a person has contravened the act, and people have commented that not much seems to happen. That's, I think, for the government to deal with. People have suggested that perhaps there should be something in the act about notifying somebody or something, and that wouldn't trouble me. Although, I think there may be some privacy issues there, and one would have to be careful as to whom one was notifying about stuff.
I mean, there are complicated questions and one has to decide what kind of a model we're in.
5 p.m.
NDP
5 p.m.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
I don't want to get hung up on the dollar value. I appreciate what you said about the $200 being just a figure, and that anything below that, if you felt it was a conflict of interest.... That threshold is really not the important thing. The important thing is the determination of whether it's a blatant conflict or an apparent conflict, or not a conflict at all. I have a bit of difficulty with that because what I consider a blatant breach of conflict might not be the same for you.
You're going to be the judge of this. That's a very difficult role because you're determining what is a blatant conflict. I could go out with somebody for dinner who I happen to know has an interest, and I think, well, there's no conflict here, then all of a sudden I'm hearing from you that it's a conflict.
How are we going to make that determination, and how are we going to do it with respect to each other's position?
5 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The first thing to note is that gifts have nothing to do, as such, with the concept of conflict of interest, it's only in parallel they do. The rule with gifts is if something's given to you that could reasonably be seen to have been given to influence you. And that's similar to a conflict of interest, but it's not..... It confuses the situation to talk about a gift putting you into a conflict.
There is a test that can be applied, it seems to me. If somebody gives somebody a gift worth $150 or something, and lobbying them to make a decision in favour of some contract that the government's going to give, it seems to me that's not appropriate. It's very clear to me that's not appropriate.
I think, yes, somebody—I happen to be the person right now—has to make a decision on those cases. Would it be better to have no rules?
5 p.m.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
I'm just wondering if it would be better not to have any threshold.
5 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Pardon?
5 p.m.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
I agree with your statement, but would it be better to not have any threshold at all?
5 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You're getting close to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the reporting requirement is $200, but the accountability requirement has no level. One could say that a gift worth less than $20 or $30 probably wouldn't influence you. I know that many people say that a gift of $150 wouldn't influence them, or a gift of $1,000. But the fact of the matter is we have to have some kind of assurance to the public that our ministers and public office holders are not being bought.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
We're looking at ethical behaviour and that's something we shouldn't have to teach people who get elected.
5:05 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
There are judgments that you have to make and we have to respect them as coming from the commissioner, but also we have to recognize that maybe we don't all agree with those judgments. I'm sure you've experienced that in the past.
5:05 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I have guidelines on what is an appropriate gift, that I put up for the act.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Under what conflict of interest provisions or legislation do agents of Parliament, those who are not included under the actual Conflict of Interest Act, find themselves governed? Do they fall under this category, as well, in your position? Is that correct?
5:05 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Actually, it's officers of Parliament who are excluded. There's a lot of confusion as to the difference between an officer and an agent of Parliament. I talk a little bit about that in my report. At the moment, if you look at our website, you'd see that all the agents of Parliament are covered by the act. The only people who are excluded are the officers of Parliament. That's the difference. Because agents of Parliament are often called officers of Parliament, sometimes they think they should be excluded as well. To date, they have accepted that they're under the act.
My recommendation is that those particular entities should be listed so it's clear.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
You've mentioned having interviews to make sure that you educate office holders as to what their obligations are in terms of conflict of interest, and you've discussed even penalties, and all this is going to take people and time. Has your office looked at the costing of implementing some of your amendments to this act?
