Information & Ethics Committee on June 10th, 2014

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Patricia Davidson]

We'll call this meeting to order.

The order of the day, pursuant to Standing Orders 110 and 111, is the certificate of nomination of Mary Elizabeth Dawson to the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, which was referred to this committee on Thursday, June 5, 2014.

Welcome, Ms. Dawson.

Do you have some opening remarks for us?

[Mary Dawson, Nominee for the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner , As an Individual]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee today, as it studies the question of renewing my mandate as commissioner.

I was originally appointed to the position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, and took office July 9, 2007, the same day the Conflict of Interest Act came into force.

Prior to my time as commissioner, I enjoyed a long career in the public service as a lawyer with the Department of Justice. I spent part of my Department of Justice career as a legislative drafter, and the rest as a public law lawyer with particular emphasis on constitutional law. I was privileged to be directly involved in some of the key files that have shaped Canada's constitutional and legal framework.

My last position with the department was that of associate deputy minister, and I retired from the department in 2005.

In 2007, I accepted the appointment as Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. As commissioner, I continued to work in the field of law, but through a different lens, interpreting and administering both the act and the conflict of interest code for members of the House of Commons, which has been in place since 2004.

I have now served as commissioner for nearly seven years, and have met with this committee on many occasions to discuss the mandate, activities, and budget of my office. My annual reports for the 2013-14 fiscal year under both the act and under the members' code were tabled in Parliament last week. In my reports, I took the opportunity to review many of the achievements of my office since my appointment. I would like to briefly highlight some of these now.

When I became commissioner, my intention was to ensure that the act and the members' code were interpreted and applied fairly and consistently, with clarity and common sense. I also sought to ensure that public office holders and members received the support they needed from my office to achieve and maintain compliance with the two regimes. In support of this, I have pursued a number of priorities, including establishing the new administrative monetary penalties regime that was instituted under the act, organizing the operations and staffing of my office, improving the public registries under the act and members' code, and establishing a case management system. I continue to regularly review organizational and technical needs to ensure that the office is well positioned to deliver on its mandate.

In applying the act and the members' code, I view my role as being primarily to advise, inform, and try to prevent contraventions. Indeed, my office is organized to support this emphasis. Nearly half of all employees in my office are engaged in advisory or outreach activities.

In order to provide guidance to public office holders and members on their obligations under the two regimes, I have issued a number of guidelines, information notices and advisory opinions.

My staff and I have also made numerous presentations to groups of individuals subject to the act or members' code.

In addition, I have ensured that the office website is updated regularly with information for public office holders and members.

I also have a mandate to enforce compliance. Over the years, I have issued a number of compliance orders, imposed administrative monetary penalties under the act, and when necessary have investigated possible contraventions of the act and the members' code. Since 2007, I have issued reports on 17 examinations under the act and six inquiries under the members' code.

I am pleased to say that my office can now draw on a significant body of work that includes precedents, procedures and interpretations that form a solid framework for future progress. Our engagement with other domestic and international jurisdictions also continues to grow and to inform our work. We respond regularly to inquiries and requests from government officials and ethics practitioners in other countries seeking information about the Canadian regime, and from members of the public and the media who wish to know more about our mandate and operations.

I have over the years developed my own views on how well the act and the members' code work. I have on a number of occasions, including several times before this committee, stated that at their core I believe both regimes work relatively well. I have also shared my views on areas in which I believe they may be enhanced or strengthened. My annual and investigative reports, as well as my submissions to this committee and to the procedure and House affairs committee for the five-year reviews of the act and the members' code, provide clear statements of my views and recommendations.

Over the years, my office and I have continued to develop solid internal management and policy frameworks to oversee human and financial resources, in line with public sector practices and based on the principles of transparency and integrity. I am pleased to say that the annual audits of our financial statements have consistently resulted in positive evaluations.

In terms of my priorities moving forward, I plan of course to continue the day-to-day work of administering the act and the members' code. I look forward to seeing what changes may actually come from the five-year reviews.

I will ensure that all the cases that are under investigation are dealt with in as timely a way as possible.

Another priority will be to renew the public registries on the office's website. They will be updated using new technology to allow for greater search functionality and ease of use.

We will continue to work on documenting precedents through an internal practice manual, as well as internal processes, and on improving the way we manage electronic records.

We will develop a succession plan, and begin to implement a performance measurement framework to allow us to measure and report on results.

Finally, we will continue to assess our practices and procedures to ensure that we operate in an effective, efficient, and fiscally prudent manner.

I would be remiss if I did not comment on the fact that I have an excellent management team and dedicated employees within the office who have supported me in the delivery of my mandate over the past seven years. I thank them for their continued work.

In conclusion, I believe that my record as commissioner provides you with a solid indication of my approach to administering the act and members' code.

If confirmed, I intend to continue with the same approach of applying the act and the members’ code with clarity, consistency and common sense.

Once more, I thank the committee for inviting me. I'll be pleased to answer any questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Patricia Davidson]

Thank you very much, Ms. Dawson.

We will now go to our first round of questioning.

Mr. Angus, you are first, for seven minutes, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Madam Dawson, for coming to our committee again.

In one of your previous appearances, when we were looking at the Conflict of Interest Act, the issue of the rules around political fundraising came up. You said you had concerns, but you hadn't really defined any parameters, it seemed.

Have you given more reflection to that?

[Mary Dawson]

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble hearing a little bit. You are asking about fundraising. Is it whether I have thought any more about it?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes. When you were here on the review of the Conflict of Interest Act, we raised questions, and questions had already been raised about what is and what is not appropriate in terms of political fundraising.

[Mary Dawson]

Right.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You said you had concerns, but you didn't have any real definitions. Have you examined that further?

[Mary Dawson]

I have suggested in my five-year review document that the government consider making ministers and parliamentary secretaries not do any fundraising at all, but that's as much as I've said.

There are issues, certainly, that arise around fundraising all the time, and sometimes they're quite difficult. In many circumstances, you don't know in advance who may be looking for something from you after the fact, and there are a number of rules engaged by that. Usually, when we give advice, we give them a written piece of advice and mention the sections that could be engaged subsequently.

That's about it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

One of the recommendations that the government brought forward on the conflict of interest review was to put all civil servants under the public office holders' rules.

Have you examined how that would actually be enforced and who it would include?

[Mary Dawson]

Yes. I found that a very surprising recommendation. I certainly read the minority report, which suggested that there would be something like 260,000 additional people whom my office would have to administer. That obviously says to me that it wouldn't be the same office. I found that a very surprising recommendation.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Have you looked further into it? For example, would someone working at a government call centre in Scarborough be under the same rules a parliamentary secretary or cabinet minister would be?

[Mary Dawson]

The way the recommendation read was anybody who is unionized and has a union that relates to the federal government, so I guess they would. I have not taken the time to itemize who would be under that and who would not. All I know is it would be a huge group of people, and I would be surprised if—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Someone working for PSAC who might be a floor cleaner in a government building would be under the same conflict of interest guidelines as a parliamentary secretary then, and you would have to administer the act.

[Mary Dawson]

Yes, well now, there are two kinds of people, of course. There is the reporting public office holder and the public office holder. There are more stringent rules for the reporting public officer, I would assume. I can't imagine how my office.... It wouldn't operate the way it operates with 260,000—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Would you be able to operate if you had to keep tabs on an extra 260,000 people?

[Mary Dawson]

No, I think it would have to be a rule-making body. It would be a totally different system, and somebody else would be administering it. Two-hundred sixty-thousand is a lot of people.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Right, keeping tabs.... Right now we're supposed to be compliant and public office holders have to follow through. Have you any idea how you'd even keep track of who these 260,000 people are?

[Mary Dawson]

No. I'm waiting with interest, and hope that it doesn't happen, I guess, to see what possible regime could be proposed. There are no details here, but I do see that the government has endorsed the report.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes.

As well, one of the questions that came up before was, if you're doing an investigation but then the RCMP steps in, you have to suspend your investigation. Now that the RCMP have ended their investigation into Nigel Wright, what is the status of your investigation of Mr. Wright?

[Mary Dawson]

My investigation is still suspended. There are actually two provisions in the Conflict of Interest Act that require suspension. One is if there's an ongoing investigation or case being held about an individual who I am also investigating, and the other one is if the same subject matter is being investigated, whether or not it's the same individual. It appears to me, from all that I'm aware of, that an investigation on the same subject matter is still going on.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

My understanding from the RCMP was they were not investigating Mr. Nigel Wright, but that he was being held as a witness for something else, so even if he's a witness for another case, you would not continue in your investigation on whether it was appropriate for him to write that $90,000 cheque.

[Mary Dawson]

Mr. Duffy is being investigated and that $90,000 is involved in the investigation, so it looks to me like it's the same subject matter and nobody has disabused me of that view, so I think I am required to continue the suspension.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, it's your interpretation then that the investigation is still around the $90,000 and not just—

[Mary Dawson]

That's my understanding.