Evidence of meeting #30 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was request.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
In a merger and acquisition, where information and knowledge is valuable, I think you would agree with me that there is a commercial value to some of this information for the corporate applicants, correct? There is value.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Yes.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
If we could address the volume, and the volume of work that your report cited, by charging enough not to make it a barrier but to make the purely commercial applicants think twice about just littering the landscape with requests, which is easy for them to do but costs $1,200 to $1,300 per small request, it would be not just a small supplement to allow an added budget for your office. It would actually make the private sector whittle down to the information they truly need and would allow the system to be faster and better for regular citizens.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Well, I would be more than happy to consider these matters. I think it is probably based on the premise that is perhaps not quite accurate because the requesters, be they journalists or commercial requesters, are actually requesting public sector information. They're not requesting information from a private entity. They're requesting government information, which is public sector information. At the same time, it's odd because we are putting forward open government and open government by default. The government signed the G8. If you look at the G8 on open data, the principle that the government has agreed to is to have free information through open data, yet we're saying we have to have a scaling fee schedule for access requests.
I think we have to look at this in an integrated way. This is what I've recommended to the President of the Treasury Board because, on the one hand, we can't say we want open government, open government by default, and open data that is free of charge and released quickly in a timely manner to anyone who requests it, but on the other hand, if you make an access request, we're going to charge you money on the scaling fee. We're going to have to assess you as a requester even though, under the principles of the act, we're not supposed to question the reasons why you're asking for the information, we're not supposed to ask for the motive for which you request the information, and we're not supposed to ask for your identity when you're requesting information.
Going through a sliding scale of fees actually raises all of these other issues about the right of access.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Would it be fair to say that Canadians would view an application or a request from a citizen and a corporate entity—it could be a numbered company—differently? Do you think Canadians would see those as different in the context of open and transparent government?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I'm not sure. I can tell you that, as Information Commissioner, I really think we should think consistently in an integrated manner about open data, open government by default, which includes access to information. We should have one principle that applies across the board, and make it simple. Simplicity actually generates efficiencies, in my view.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
Okay, I think that concludes your time. Thank you, Mr. O'Toole.
That's the end of our first round of questioning, the seven-minute rounds. We switch now to five-minute rounds.
First up will be Mathieu Ravignat, for the NDP.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Madame Legault, for being here.
I would tend to agree. I think Canadians would find it pretty bizarre that something that they're supporting with their taxes, something that is theirs, which is public information, needs to be wrestled out of the government with high fees or fees that may be unreasonable.
Not too long ago, the Conservative government did announce that it might consider or would consider making cabinet confidence subject to review of the Information Commissioner. Has that happened?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
No.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
On the cabinet confidence redacting, are you even allowed to study the issue?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Yes. People can complain to our office. With cabinet confidences, the only thing we see is a schedule, a description of the records. We don't have the ability to review the records.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
Is it possible to determine if those cabinet confidence redactions have increased in number in the last couple of years?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I would have to get back to you on the number of complaints for cabinet confidences. I can give you statistics on that. The government has changed its process in the summer of 2013 in terms of how it's processing the requests for the identified cabinet confidences. This is something we're following very closely, but we don't have enough data yet to see any trends.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
Well, I would definitely be interested to know. I'd also be interested to know how much the $1,300 per request is actually due to cabinet confidence redaction, in some of the costs. But I understand you probably can't answer that question right now.
Another thing that they promised was to ensure that all exemptions from the disclosure of government information are justified only on the basis of the harm or injury that would result from disclosure, not blanket exemption rules. Has that also happened?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
No.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
In most instances, that test is certainly what's considered to be the best in terms of international norms. There are certain circumstances where that's not appropriate, but they're much more limited than what we have now.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
Right now we are dealing with a system that has blanket exemption rules.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
We're dealing with a system that is actually supposed to be based on open government by default.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I looked at the Hansard for 1982-83, when our current legislation was put forward, and it was put forward on the basis of open government. Open government is a 30-year-old concept.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
You know that there are organizations out there that are judging our access to information system. We've been harshly judged. We're now 56th out of 95 countries. We're behind Honduras, Belize, Colombia, Russia, Malta, Montenegro, and Nigeria. That's very troubling. I think we have a proud history of democracy in this country. This is deeply concerning.
Can you tell me very shortly what the main contributing factor is in that failing grade?
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
In the failing grade in the evaluation by the Centre for Law and Democracy, one area where we're losing points is the scope of coverage. We have a list of institutions that are covered, as opposed to having a principled approach in terms of what institutions should be covered. For instance, Parliament is not covered; parliamentary administration is not covered.
That is something that we see in newer pieces of legislation.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
Great, thank you.
There's another thing that is really troubling to me, and I think it's troubling to Canadians as well. You actually reported on this, and that was political interference in the access to information system, particularly at PWGSC. I'd read it; I certainly hope it's not a trend. I hope you have the power and the resources to track this kind of interference.
Are you confident that with the law as it exists right now, you can actually prevent this kind of interference in the future?