Information & Ethics Committee on May 25th, 2015

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Do you believe it offends the rule of natural justice and the rule of law to contemplate passing legislation that affects people retroactively? Could we not do the same thing with the Mike Duffy affair and make it okay to give a sitting senator a $90,000 cheque?

[Suzanne Legault]

I think that this retroactive application and the retroactive stripping of the application of the Access to Information Act is a perilous precedent. I think it could be used in any other file, of course. It could be used in any of our further investigations, and we are pursuing all avenues possible.

You have to understand this was just tabled on May 7, and these are complex matters. We are looking into whether or not this raises issues with relation to the rights of access, and whether it raises constitutional issues under subsection 2(b) of the charter, and whether it raises constitutional issues with the rule of law.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you, Madame Legault.

Now I'll give the floor to Madame Davidson for seven minutes as well.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thanks to both of you for being here, and to your colleagues, Madame Dawson, for coming along. It's good to see you all again. I have a few questions on the estimates, which I believe you're here to answer today.

First of all, thanks very much for the overview that you gave us, Madam Dawson. It was certainly very informative. I note you said that in your first five years you had the operating budget of $7.1 million, and that you have reduced the non-salary portion by 3% over the past two fiscal years. I think it's remarkable that you've been able to do that and continue on with the work you've been doing.

You said you've been able to do that by centralizing some of your functions, and you mentioned printing and procurement. You also talked about reducing the amount that you set aside as a reserve. Can you tell me what your numbers were prior to the reductions and what they might be down to now?

[Mary Dawson]

I think they were around $600,000.

Denise, am I right there?

[Denise Benoit, Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner]

Exactly, and it's now down to close to $500,000, but it's been reduced. The reserves took the biggest chunk of the cut we made to the budget.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

What was the purpose of those reserves? When or why would they be used?

[Mary Dawson]

We established them when the new office was established because we had no idea of what kind of activity we'd have, on the investigation front in particular. Generally, over the first few years... It took a year or two to even get organized to start the investigative exercise, but once it started it did increase significantly over the next few years. It's levelled off now, but that's what the main purpose of it was. We really did not know what would be entailed in the investigations.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Do you feel that things have levelled out and that you do have a better handle on what might be expected or what may happen?

[Mary Dawson]

At the moment it seems to have levelled off some, yes.

[Denise Benoit]

If I may add just one piece of information, we also use the reserve to fund the development of new applications. The commissioner made a reference earlier in her opening remarks about the new public registry that was released at the beginning of April, and that was funded mostly out of the reserve. Without the reserve we wouldn't be able to invest in that kind of application development.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

You talked about transparency within your organization. Certainly we all know that's extremely important. You also talked about your status reports on different things.

You also said that since 2010-11 the annual financial statements have been audited by an independent auditor. How is that different from other organizations within the government structure? What happened before 2010-11?

[Mary Dawson]

Before 2010-11 we did not have an independent auditor. We decided, in the first few years, to have one because we wanted to allow people to be as certain as possible that we were doing a good job with our money.

I really don't know enough about comparing it to the others, but Denise can perhaps add something.

[Denise Benoit]

If I remember well from my years in the public service, the Auditor General usually will audit the financial statements. In our case, because of our status, we actually went out. We're using Ernst & Young to do it, but they're using the same accounting principles. They're verified, like any other financial statements that would be done within the public service.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I guess it's the feeling from your organization, then, that the independent auditor gives you that other, extra arm's-length. Is that the reasoning?

[Denise Benoit]

Absolutely.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

How many employees do you have? You said that you are managing the non-investigative portion of it by cutting back on some of the other costs. Then you said that salaries represent your largest budgetary expenditure, and you do not always fill every position as it becomes vacant. I think you noted later on in your opening remarks that you have four that perhaps aren't filled at this time, if I heard you correctly. How many employees do you have and what is your long-term plan for filling those positions?

[Mary Dawson]

We have 49 positions, and I believe there are 45 on strength at the moment. We're in a “let's see how we can make do with what we've got” space at the moment. A lot of the absences...usually we have a maternity leave or two each year and that's still a budgetary charge. We are using part-time workers, like one-year terms and things, sometimes to fill in behind those people. We're increasingly trying to establish a pool.

We're not sure what's going to happen after the election, of course. Even if nothing unusual happens there's always quite a bit more work right after an election with new people in, and with new staff for people. There's an uncertainty there as to just what we will face in the fall. What else? I'm not sure what else. I'm sure there are other things.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Maybe I can ask you a bit about the investigation files. You said that there were 45 that you dealt with during the past fiscal year, six were opened during that time, and then I think you said eight have been carried over and two have been closed since. Can you just elaborate a little bit more on what the normal number, or usual number, is on a yearly basis, and how this compares to it, including the number of files that have closed and those that are still undergoing investigation?

[Mary Dawson]

Usually there are a number of investigations going on at the same time and they take varying lengths of time to complete. What we found this past year was that as the year began we had quite a few investigations that had been going on for more than a year or two, so we were determined to get those ones closed down. We actually managed to close down five of them. Not all of them were carried over. I think that's approximately the numbers that we're having of investigations.

There's not a huge difference. The lowest number was in 2010-11 and there were 39 files opened. The highest was in 2012-13, which was 48. This year it's 45, so we're within the same ballpark generally. You have to distinguish the files opened and the files for which we actually initiated an examination. Of course, the 49 are all the files opened, which is why so many are closed, because we look into them and see whether there's any merit. Sometimes it's from getting a request, and sometimes it's something I've seen or that has come to my attention from the general public. We're very careful though that with any information that comes in we consider it carefully to determine whether indeed there is anything that should be investigated.

There are many more files that are opened and closed than there are examinations begun.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, I have to cut you off there, as it is Mr. Simms' turn.

Mr. Simms, you may go ahead for seven minutes.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming, all. This is my first time here in front of you, although not the entire crew.

I have a question, Madame Legault, just for my own information here. In the expenditures the statutory spending goes from $358,000 in 2013-14 up to over $1 million in 2014-15. By the same token the program expenditures change. What is that supposed to mean?

[Suzanne Legault]

Can you tell me what you're looking at?

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I'm talking about the main estimates budgetary voted.

[Suzanne Legault]

What page?