Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 1st, 2018

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Is the lack of communication between the CRA and Elections Canada a problem in hypothetical terms?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Again, I defer to the commissioner on that. I do know that the law in Québec is much more flexible in the sharing of tax information with the directeur général des élections du Québec, and that's something that may warrant some consideration in the future. Absent a good understanding of the challenges the commissioner is facing, it's hard for me to go beyond that.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

You spoke of perhaps considering subsidies or financial support to political parties in their ability to address the new technological challenges. Does Elections Canada have the resources to enforce what you can do at the moment?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Absolutely. We are fortunate that the legal structure for the funding of Elections Canada provides a statutory authority to draw from the consolidated revenue, so I can spend what I feel is required and justified to upgrade my IT systems, and I have done that to a significant extent in the last few years.

That is not something that parties have, of course. I can tell you that I understand the costs that are involved there and the challenges that this can represent. I also know that we have a very rich and sensitive database, and it is very similar to that of the parties in terms of its scope on the number of electors. How do they protect that, and how can they take measures?

I don't want to frighten Canadians or members of the committee. I know parties are working with the security partners, and I think that's good news. I just think that, seeing the cost rising for cybersecurity, there is a public interest in considering whether parties have the necessary resources.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you, Mr. Kent.

Next up for seven minutes is Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Perrault, I'll start with you. Can you say today, as Canada's Chief Electoral Officer, that you are confident that the 2019 federal election is secure against misinformation and disinformation campaigns?

[Stéphane Perrault]

We don't control misinformation and disinformation. I am confident that we are taking the steps that we need to take to address misinformation or disinformation about the voting process. I'm confident that we have resources in place—the commissioner has resources in place—to deal with offences under the Canada Elections Act.

But the broader issue of misinformation and disinformation and how information is used to create division within society goes well beyond the roles and responsibilities of electoral management bodies. It's a societal challenge that we're all facing.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

What would be your major concern? If you had one overarching concern about the integrity or fairness or legitimacy of the election in 2019, what would that be?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I am quite optimistic about the integrity of the next election. We can't be overly confident, and we have to be alert, but we are taking measures to deal with the challenges.

What is concerning to me when I look at other societies, when there's such a big divide—a polarization—is the lack of an ability to even have a conversation about what is a fair election and what is the legitimacy of an election. I don't think we've reached that point in Canada. I think that's a critical bedrock, to be able to have a consensus on what is fair and what is not fair, and we are doing well, I think.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I want to direct you to something specific, then. As you testified today and have testified in the past, you pointed out that this committee had recommended that political parties be subject to privacy laws. You yourself have recommended that. I want to quote your remarks. You said:

If there is one area where the bill failed, it is privacy. The parties are not subjected to any kind of privacy regime. I have pointed this out in the past and I want to mention it again today. The Privacy Commissioner has talked about it, and we are in agreement on this issue. I simply wanted to reiterate that this morning, without going into detail.

Well, I want to take you into a bit of detail, if I can, Mr. Perrault. What are the implications of that failure by the government to subject political parties to privacy laws in terms of the 2019 election?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I think what we're seeing is that Canadians increasingly want to understand the nature and the source of the communications that are reaching them. I think an important aspect of understanding that is transparency in the ads and in social media, but another aspect is understanding what data is out there about them and who is using that data, and having some measure of control over that.

While the bill does some good things in terms of the transparency, I do find it unfortunate that it does not go into the privacy side to the extent that it should, which is having minimal standards and some oversight.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I guess I'm asking why. What's the problem with that?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I don't have the answer to that question. It is late in the electoral cycle. I think this is a conversation that we should have had earlier. I realize that the election is now coming, but I don't know any good reason not to have that conversation. I recognize, as I did in answering another member's question, that parties have special situations, and the rules on privacy should be made to apply in a way that recognizes those special situations, but there's nothing that prevents these privacy principles from being used in an adapted manner.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I want to shift to something different.

Last election, in 2015, I was in Vancouver knocking on doors at 6:15 p.m. pulling the vote—the polls closed at 7 p.m.—when I looked at the TV and saw Peter Mansbridge on CBC call a national Liberal majority. We had many anecdotal reports from people who were counting ballots later in Vancouver that when they turned the ballots over, they could actually determine that the ballots that were cast last took a different hue from the ones that were cast earlier.

Obviously when a portion of the country knows the results of the election before they cast their ballots, not only is that a piece of information that other Canadians do not have when they cast their ballots, but it actually is a piece of information that can influence voting behaviour. Do you have any concerns or proposals to address that in the next election, or do we suffer the same result next time?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I don't have a proposal. I recognize the issue. It's an issue that the act has been struggling with over the years. Historically, there used to be a prohibition on the early disclosure of the results in those electoral districts where the polls were still open. The genie is out of the bottle on that in terms of the ability to contain the information because with social media and the Internet, that's very difficult to do.

There remains a staggering of the voting hours. Now, of course, you don't want the people out west to be voting so early that it's not accessible to them. You also have to look at the end of the polling day. If we delay the count or hold the results, we have poll workers—sometimes people who are not young—working for long hours, 16 hours. To extend that period out east so that the results are not disclosed out west would be very difficult on the poll workers. There's no easy answer to that one.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Hutton, social media companies are appearing to act more and more like broadcasters of information and news content. In your view, should social media companies be subject to the Broadcasting Act in Canada with respect to those activities?

[Scott Hutton]

As you are all aware, currently there is a planned review of the Broadcasting Act and the Telecommunications Act, the acts upon which we undertake our mandate. We've also been asked by government to formulate a report that would feed into those reviews precisely, and that's the report that I referenced in my opening remarks. In that report, one of the main objectives is, essentially, to conclude that any parties who do benefit from operating broadcasting in Canada should be participating in our system.

Hence, our answer would be that, yes, those who are conducting broadcasting should be part of the system.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you.

Next up for seven minutes is Mr. Saini.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I want to thank all of you for being here this morning.

I have a question for Mr. Perrault. We're living in a time when elections have changed. Interference is not only a Canadian issue; it's a global issue. We've seen reports of election interference, obviously, in the United States, France, the U.K. and Germany. We're not an isolated country where only we are facing these types of problems. Our allies, our global partners, are also facing this.

Since our election is coming up next year, subsequent to other countries having had elections in the past, have you had an opportunity to work with your counterparts in other countries to come up with some best practices? I would think that there would be a lot of commonality in approach and tactics. Have you been able to discuss with them what measures they've taken, where they've fallen short, where we can plug the gap and where we can strengthen our own system?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Yes, certainly, we have, and we take part in conversations and forums internationally. We've been to Europe and have discussed with European countries their measures. One thing that is striking to me is that the quality of our electoral process and its integrity are no longer just a matter for Elections Canada. We are very independent, and we care about that independence deeply, but we need to work with security partners. We did in the past, but the level of collaboration needs to increase, and it has increased significantly.

We also need to work with parties. I've asked parties to come together, and I'll be meeting with them in the coming weeks to look at what we can do collaboratively. What happens if a party receives a tantalizing offer about hacked information from an adversary party? Are they going to jump on that offer, or are they going to agree not to share it? Whom are they going to call, and how are we going to deal with these scenarios? This is the Macron scenario in France.

We have to look at scenarios with security partners, and we're doing that right now. We have to look at who is doing what and make sure that nothing falls between the cracks. We have to work with parties about what they can do because we all have a shared interest in the integrity of the electoral process.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

When you talk about the integrity of the electoral process, you're talking about Canadians' access to accurate information in terms of the voting process: where to vote, how to vote and how to register to vote. I want to know what approach Elections Canada will take in an election campaign. Hypothetically, if you see a message on social media someplace about something inaccurate, how do you respond to that? Do you have enough resources to monitor all the social media that are available?

[Stéphane Perrault]

We are currently purchasing listening tools. The purpose there is not to listen to particular conversations, and we're not interested in who says what. These are tools that assist with artificial intelligence, gathering information about what's being said about the electoral process. We have key words that we can use. We also have a team that will be working on that, so we will have a strategy with regard to social media so that we can respond quickly if there is disinformation being put out there.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'd like to share my time with MP Erskine-Smith.