Evidence of meeting #132 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson
Ann Cavoukian  Privacy by Design Centre of Excellence, Ryerson University, As an Individual
Michael Geist  Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

4:50 p.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

Maybe I'll start.

You've raised two separate issues. You've raised the issue of people being forced into digital, which we've talked a little bit about already. I think it's striking how this issue gets raised by members on this side and by members on that side, and that has been true for many years. I've been coming to committees and we have talked about this access issue. I must admit that to me it remains a bit of a puzzle how we haven't been able to move forward more effectively in ensuring we close the digital divide—

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

It's still there.

4:50 p.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

—that continues to exist. Part of the solution is to say that everybody does need affordable access. That is the full stop of what we have to do, and we have to make the commitment to make sure that happens.

You've also essentially raised the question of what happens when data gets used for purposes that go well beyond what people would have otherwise expected or anticipated. On the private sector side, we would say that's a privacy violation. You collect the data. You tell me what you're going to use it for, and if you turn around and start using it for other purposes you haven't obtained appropriate consent for, then I, in theory, can try to take action against you or at least file a complaint.

Part of the shortcoming—and this comes back to even the exchange with Mr. Baylis—is that we still don't have good enough laws at the federal level to ensure that data isn't misused in certain ways. We have seen over many years, especially the years with debates around lawful access and the like, very often the notion that if we have the data, surely we need to use it. There is always going to be a reason for that. You need to establish both, I think, the rule sets and the frameworks to ensure there are the appropriate safeguards in place and there's the appropriate oversight on top of that. I think at the end of the day you need to ensure you have governments, just like companies, that recognize that where they become overly aggressive with using data, because they feel they can, they cause enormous harm to that information ecosystem, and ultimately undermine public confidence not only in them but also, I think, in governments more broadly.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

It's also a question of democracy, because even if they say they'll get consent, and 10% of the public decides to opt in, they are still obtaining information—good stuff, and good news stories, potentially—that can sway them democratically.

There is a whole different question that I think we haven't talked about in terms of the need to protect the democratic equality of citizens, both those who choose to opt in and those who choose not to. If they are dealing with government, it's because they have to deal with government and because they have to fix a problem with their SIN card or CRA. That's why they obtain it, not so they're receiving that information.

To me, it's like the consent boxes that we have for private business right now. If government used them, they'd be laughing all the way to the election.

4:50 p.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

I think you're right. I think consent remains very weak, but let's recognize—and I know this has been discussed before this committee as well—that we still don't have political parties subject to those sorts of privacy rules.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Do you want to put that on the record?

4:50 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:50 p.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

On the idea that we're going to say this is an issue of democracy, yes, it's an issue of democracy. It's a real problem when our political parties will collect data and aren't subject to the same kinds of privacy standards that they would subject any private company to.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

We have a couple of questioners left, which will take us to the end of our time.

We have Anita Vandenbeld and Monsieur Picard.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

I'll turn to Mona.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Go ahead.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have two questions.

We touched on this briefly, but it's important that it be understood. Collecting data and having access to it is viewed in a negative light by part of the Canadian population. It's unfortunate that some of these tools, including some of the work undertaken by Statistics Canada, are used by political parties to frighten Canadians. I'm talking about third parties here.

How can we win the trust of Canadians, so as to be able to put some of these measures into effect, measures that are intended, ultimately, to allow Canadians to access the government and the services it provides?

4:55 p.m.

Privacy by Design Centre of Excellence, Ryerson University, As an Individual

Dr. Ann Cavoukian

I just want to say one thing. There are a variety of things, of course, that we can do, but you asked how we can regain the trust of the public in terms of what government is doing. With due respect, there was one thing that took place last year that further eroded that trust. Prime Minister Trudeau was asked by the federal Privacy Commissioner to include political parties under the privacy laws. Mr. Trudeau said no. He basically did not go in that direction.

That was a most disappointing thing. Why wouldn't political parties be subject to privacy laws just like businesses and other government departments are? Unfortunately, there is not a lot that is increasing trust in government. With due respect, I think that was a very negative point. I think these are the things....

Also, Mr. Trudeau defended Stats Canada in their pursuit of very sensitive financial data from the public. There was a huge push-back to that. This has not been really disclosed: the banks offered the chief statistician at Stats Canada.... They said, “Okay, we will de-identify the data and remove all personal identifiers and then we will give you the data. You can have the data you need but it will be privacy protected because we're going to strip the identifiers.” What did Stats Canada say to that? They said, “No, we want the data in identifiable form.” From what I heard confidentially, there were a lot of data linkages that Stats Canada wanted to make with the very sensitive financial data of citizens. That is completely unacceptable.

I just give you that, ma'am, as an example of things that are eroding trust as opposed to increasing trust.

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Geist, what would you do?

4:55 p.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

It's hard to follow Ann in this regard. She has pointed to a couple of examples. I'll give you another one, which is very small and is not one that generates headlines.

I've been actively involved in the creation of legislation that created things like the do-not-call list and the anti-spam law. Political parties have consistently exempted themselves in the name of democracy. If you want to talk about how you ensure respect, stop exempting yourselves as political parties from annoying phone calls at dinner and the ability to spam people.

I think that respect starts with respecting the privacy of Canadians. It's fair to say that when presented with the prospect of real restrictions and the ability to use information, the political parties—and I think this needs to be absolutely clear: This has occurred under Conservative governments and under Liberal governments. This is not about this particular government. It is about the history of governments that, I think, have consistently said that when it comes to privacy-related issues, they are much more comfortable setting high standards for everybody other than themselves. We see that in the exemptions. We've seen that in the inability to get the Privacy Act updated in any meaningful way for decades, and we see it with some of the examples that Dr. Cavoukian just raised.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Picard, do you want to ask the next question?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thank you. I think we're done for time.

Thank you very much, Dr. Cavoukian and Dr. Geist, for coming. This subject is a big one. We've stumbled upon this iceberg, as we've mentioned, many times, and it just seems to be growing, but thank you for your time today.

We're going to go in camera to do some committee business for five minutes.

[Proceedings continue in camera]