Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[Alex Benay]

In this case, it's a little further ahead than the identification piece. Our Canadian digital exchange platform—DXP for short—is a series of tools, from a messaging service where we can share the data to an open-source API store where federal government services will be able to create an API for third parties to gain access to unclassified data for now. We're walking before we're running. As we're designing this, I'd say that we've completed about 50% of the build. The challenges are in finding real “live-use” cases that have minimal risk and in ensuring that we are using unclassified data first, rather than citizen data. We will make sure that we walk before we run. In this case, we brought in the Estonians who had designed X-Road, and we started redesigning X-Road in the context of Canada's laws, regulations and other things.

The beauty with this system, if it proceeds down this road, is that we will be able to bake in accessibility, privacy and security. We'll also be able to determine how we move data around in the Government of Canada, based on a core set of principles.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

When you say you're going to walk before you run, running in government is perhaps optimistic. However, in terms of the first steps, when I look at Estonia and at first steps, it strikes me that the basic information in the population register, which is constant information that is drawn on by other departments—it's my name, my email address, my home address, my phone number...I keep telling the government this and I don't want to do that over and over again, wasting my time and presumably someone else's time at the department. Is that the kind of walking we're talking about, this basic information, or is that not where we're at? Are we even earlier on?

[Alex Benay]

I would say the theory you've described is accurate. Where we choose to apply it may not be with personal information first. For example, the business number is something that we've agreed on. There is a central registry for a business number, so we may want to start there. We may want to start with unclassified...well, no, I promise you we will also start with unclassified information first. We could crawl before walking.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I was going to say that it sounds like crawling, not walking.

You've both laid out the paths you're proceeding on, and it seems like a lot of good work is being done quite quickly. Are there specific recommendations that either of you think we ought to make to the government with respect to improving digital government services and respecting Canadians' privacy?

[Alex Benay]

I think there are a few things. I do think that we are gradually—and possibly not quickly enough—applying the lessons we've learned from some of our major failures. You heard me speak to the NextGen process. I think that the culture shift is going to be the big change, and it's not necessarily the culture of the public sector. It's simply the fact that things are changing so quickly. In some cases, things are happening, and it's not necessarily in our control or something that we didn't see happen, because the pace of change in the outside world is very quick. That could mean companies automating themselves, with our not necessarily having a say in it and all of a sudden it's a service that we use. That is a major risk.

I think our biggest challenge, or at least the thing that we have to keep an eye on, is the pace of change, and therefore our laws and some of our regulations. The dialogue is there at a technical level across all levels of government. The biggest challenge.... Some of the countries that are doing quite well are the ones that are adjusting some of their frameworks more rapidly, as rapidly as the change in technology itself.

We're learning from that. We have a good opportunity with the digital line to see how some of these smaller countries are being a bit more nimble. We are also seeing how we could apply that in Canada. That is probably one of the biggest lessons we've learned up to now. Whether that means protecting privacy or developing regulations for economic growth, we're seeing that those countries that are able to react faster are getting a lot of benefit, both from a citizen protection perspective and from an economic growth perspective.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you, Mr. Erskine-Smith.

Next up, we have monsieur Gourde for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'd like to know what Canada's ideal digital system would look like, in your eyes. I'm sure you have to work within certain parameters, but if you could do things your way, taking into account your expertise, what would be the ideal system you would deliver to Canadians if you could?

[Alex Benay]

What we would like to deliver is a system without any closed doors, so to speak, a system that provides digital services to Canadians on the IT platform of their choice or in person at a Service Canada office. They would be able to obtain a service at a Service Canada desk or through their Apple or Samsung smart watch, for instance. Canadians would have a multitude of choices enabled by a system developed with their help. The system would be designed so that all privacy and data protection requirements and access to information standards were built in from the outset. All too often, these fundamental principles are unfortunately overlooked or relegated to the end of the implementation process. Every Canadian would have access to the services they need via their preferred gateway. Finally, the ideal system would support interoperability across different levels of government, in contrast with a single system that would have to be tested in 43 federal departments and some 20 provincial ministries.

[Aaron Snow]

There are two points I would be looking for.

Number one is that in my ideal digital world, the system is fully transparent. You understand how the service is being delivered and what the steps are. When government asks for your information and when government provides you with the benefit, there is a clear, plain-language map of how it all works.

The second point I would make, to Mr. Benay's point on the previous question, is that systems that are flexible and adaptable are the systems that will keep up with whatever changes. It was only 11 and a half or 12 years ago that the first iPhone appeared. Twelve years from now, the way we want to interact with digital services and with government will be something that we are not imagining yet.

As a systems nerd, I want to know that my government is ready to adapt to whatever comes next.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Are we behind our neighbours to the south when it comes to providing digital services to citizens, or do we fare well?

[Aaron Snow]

I think the U.S. government shares many of the same obstacles that this government and other governments at this scale face. There are many sides to that question. I'm sure that in some places the U.S. government is a little further ahead and in some a little further behind.

[Alex Benay]

I am happy to jump in.

A few weeks ago, in Washington, I met with my American counterpart, Suzette Kent.

I'll repeat what Mr. Snow said. The Americans have a better grasp of certain elements, particularly cloud computing, an area where they do business with U.S. companies, and that may give them a data protection advantage.

We, however, have a leg-up when it comes to AI governance. We are in the midst of developing multiple directives on an open basis, directives other countries are using in their approaches to AI governance. Given all the interest this has generated, our two countries have been in constant communication over the past 12 months.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

What percentage of Canadians do not want to receive services digitally? We aren't able to convince everyone; probably 10% to 20% of the population is still somewhat resistant to the idea. The in-person service delivery model people are used to is being replaced. Robots and AI are being used to deliver an increasing number of services in the digital age. How are we going to deliver those services to resistant Canadians?

[Alex Benay]

Our strategy is to make sure that every Canadian is able to access services. We recognize that it's perfectly acceptable if someone opts for in-person service at a Service Canada office. I should point out that TBS has begun gauging public opinion on digital service delivery. We've learned that two out of three Canadians are comfortable with federal government departments sharing their personal information to improve service quality.

As you mentioned, the number of people who want access to digital services is on the rise, but I don't see us doing away with in-person delivery for important services. As I see it, our service strategy must adhere to a fundamental principle: no one should fall through the cracks. Trust will likely play a role as well. We'll have to show people that we can meet our commitments and that they can have confidence in the system—hence the importance of being transparent about the services we will provide and the policies we develop.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I have one last question for you.

Will MPs' offices be integrated into the digital service delivery model? We are on the front line of service to Canadians, after all. When constituents encounter problems, they call our office, so we reach out to departments to see how we can help the person get the service they need. It adds to the workload of office staff, and MPs don't always have the resources for that.

Even when they're advised to contact Service Canada, people prefer to call their MP's office for help, rather than contact the department in question. It's a double-edged sword for us, being on the front lines of service delivery to constituents.

Do you intend to build MPs' offices into your digital service solution so we can help one another?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Give just a very short answer.

[Alex Benay]

That's a question I would have to put to Service Canada. We'll take it under advisement, as we would any feedback from Canadians and MPs' offices. We want to make sure our services better target the right people to prevent those kinds of situations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you.

We're way past time.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Someone else will give you a chance to answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Maybe you can answer later on. We have a fair amount of time.

Next up, for five minutes, is Ms. Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I want to pick up first of all on something that you said, Mr. Benay. It struck me. You said that Canada is leading on ethical AI.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

[Alex Benay]

Yes. For the past 14 months we've been working on direction and policy for the way government departments use automated services, moving forward, because this is something we're seeing increase.

You heard me say that PSPC has done a procurement action for creating an AI vendors catalogue. We now have 74 companies that have been registered in this vendors catalogue for the the last few weeks. We've been providing policy direction, working fully in the open, putting our policy instruments and our documents and our directives on GitHub and Google Docs for the world to see. We've collaborated with MIT and Oxford and other universities.

It's been a very open and transparent process in creating a tool set that is called an algorithmic impact assessment. You would be familiar with something called a privacy impact assessment, when we're looking at privacy; we're looking to develop something similar, as a prevention tool, for algorithms that will identify to the departments the level of risk. Automating a chatbot that tells you through the NCC website whether the skating rink is open is probably a lower-risk step than automating our borders, for example, or our immigration systems.

We've been developing this tool fully in the open. We've had countries such as Mexico start to use the algorithmic impact assessment already, and we have other countries, such as Portugal and others we're working together with—the “digital nine”—use some of the tools we've been developing. This creates an international body of knowledge that up until now just did not exist.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

One thing I wanted to go into a little bit is the differing expectations that various Canadians have. Obviously there are elderly Canadians who are less comfortable with going online, and then there are others who, as you mentioned, expect that it's going to be just as easy to deal with government as it is to deal with Amazon or any other app they might be downloading.

When you look at those different expectations, you also find a huge difference in terms of how comfortable people are in giving their information. I still know people who won't do online banking because they don't trust it.

How do you develop an all-of-government approach when you have completely different expectations among different parts of the public?

[Aaron Snow]

I'd say that in part—and this is actually part of the answer to the previous question as well—fear or confidence in a system is in part a function of how easy it is to use and understand and how transparent the system is about how it is dealing with you and with your information.

We understand that digital is, generally speaking, a good, efficient means to provide services at scale at a lower cost. As Mr. Benay noted, we would never want to close out other forms of service; we want to make sure that we remain multi-channel. But the extent to which adoption and digital happens or does not happen has everything to do with the type of experience people have, which is why it is so important to be working with those people at every step of the process.

[Alex Benay]

Let me add as well a few statistics.

According to Statistics Canada, in the 65-plus age group about 80% of homes are Internet-connected, which is not a great but not a bad statistic. I think the question is—and this will relate to what Aaron was saying—if we can make the service seamless, transparent and easy to use, we'll go a long way in shifting the behaviour of the teams and the service model that they choose and want.

We've seen in countries such as Uruguay who have committed to having 100% of their services become 100% digital for 100% of their citizens by the end of this calendar year that they make an effort to educate the population as well, both from a data privacy perspective but also from a service delivery perspective on how to engage with government.

Those are things we'll have to do to make sure that we don't leave anyone behind.