Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 26th, 2019

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I think that, after this election, we will have to analyze what has happened. The CSE's report, which I mentioned, should be updated after this election. An analysis will be done of what has happened. I think it would be really appropriate and important for Parliament to review this. In addition, I assume that the Chief Electoral Officer will produce his report after the next election and, as he does after every general election, he will make suggestions on ways to improve the country's electoral legislation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you.

Next up, for five minutes, is Madam Fortier.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today and for sharing the information that you did. I might repeat myself, but I know that you have probably more to share with regard to the question I have.

We are very serious about the work done to protect our election against outside threats and interference. As you know, we have looked at the violations committed, including by the Cambridge Analytica firm and Facebook. For several months, members of this committee have been studying the situation in depth in collaboration with parliamentary committees from around the world; this is an important step. Our committee has focused on doing this in a non-partisan way, knowing that the repercussions on our electoral system are a major source of concern for Canadians.

How sure can Canadians be that combatting interference from foreign actors, be they quasi-governmental or individuals working alone, is a priority for our government?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

They should be very assured that this is absolutely a priority. This is something on which I have been working in terms of a whole-of-government approach. The announcement I made on January 30 brought together the ministers of defence, public safety, heritage, ISED and justice. In many respects, this is something an ADM working group is looking at. The topic for which I was invited to come, the SITE task force, brings together CSIS, CSE, RCMP and Global Affairs Canada to really ensure that the whole-of-government is taking this matter seriously, because there is nothing more important than our wonderful democracy that we have here in Canada.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

The committee would like to better understand how, if interference was detected during the election, public servants could alert Canadians of the consequences of such interference. Can you explain to Canadians how that process would work?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Of course.

As I mentioned, we have the Critical Election Incident Public Protocol. I think we have given the committee the infographic documents available on our website. According to that process, national security agencies that learn of an incident would inform the group made up of the following five senior officials: Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Deputy Minister of Global Affairs Canada, Deputy Minister of Public Safety, National Security and Intelligence Advisor, and Clerk of the Privy Council. Those senior officials would have to decide together whether it is worthwhile to inform Canadians of the incident. That group's intervention threshold would be very high and limited to incidents compromising our ability to have free and fair elections. If Canadians receive a message from that group, it would be because real foreign interference is impacting the election.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I have one last question for you. Do you think penalties should be imposed on those who interfere in the electoral system?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

The Minister of Foreign Affairs will have to make that decision. Of course, the Canada Elections Act already stipulates that foreign interference in the election is illegal. Collusion between a Canadian player and a foreign player is also illegal. In such cases, the Commissioner of Canada Elections and the RCMP would have to intervene.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Okay, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Mr. Angus, for three minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Exactly one year ago the Prime Minister issued a very stern statement to Facebook. He told them to clean up their act or we would regulate them. Then that never happened. Our committee then began our study, which really brought us down the rabbit hole of some really dark operators. I feel a real disconnect when I hear how we're talking about foreign actors, and foreign players and foreign countries, it seems, jamming the phone lines on election day, when from what we've seen, it could be two guys above an optometrist's shop, with good datasets and the ability to switch and turn votes—100 here, 50 there—who could actually dismantle the democratic system.

When we met with 17 jurisdictions around the world, they all expressed their frustration about the unwillingness of Facebook to take any responsibility. In fact, our sister committee in the U.K. has called them “digital gangsters”.

Yesterday the Toronto Star did an editorial that read, “Ottawa should stand up to Big Tech on privacy and democracy”. It read, “Yet our government seems uncertain, even paralyzed, in the face of the multiple challenges posed by the tech giants.... The United States...and...Europe...are taking strong action to counter some of the worst effects of Facebook....yet Ottawa seems...content to sit on the sidelines.” That's not me saying that; that's the Toronto Star, yesterday, presumably after it got to see your report.

I have two quick questions. One, what assurances did you get from Facebook that nobody else internationally seems to have gotten? Number two, to reiterate, will you give us the names of whoever you spoke to at Facebook so we can invite them to see what kinds of reassurances the Canadian people will get?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Angus, as I said in my last response to you, I will happily give you the names of the individuals. I just don't remember them off the top of my head, but we will get those to you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know. That's perfect.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

With regard to regulating social media, I actually do want to clarify that in fact I did regulate them through Bill C-76, through the online ad registry that they will have to comply with in the upcoming election. I think that is a really important step, and it's the first time, to my knowledge, that this has happened internationally.

With regard to assurances from Facebook, I don't have the assurances that give me full confidence that they are going to be completely seized with this and doing everything necessary, which is why I continue to have conversations with them, and have highlighted—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Why are we having conversations with them about our democratic system? That's my concern. If you're not completely satisfied, then I'm really not satisfied, because you're meeting with them.

Why are we tiptoeing around with a company that has shown such manifest disregard for undermining elections around the world? Why are we not talking about serious consequences, like the ones Germany is moving forward to, like the ones Europe is talking about? Do you not believe that our election system is still compromised by the ability of third party actors, domestically, to flip that Facebook platform because Facebook simply will not live up to its obligations?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I think it's important to look at the strength of our electoral legislation and to recognize that in Bill C-76. That's why we put in the provision about the malicious use of a computer and how that is not allowed to happen. We do have a strong electoral system and strong legislation here in Canada. We have also strengthened the rules with regard to third parties, in terms of advertising, in terms of how they disclose their finances, which I think is really important.

I have confidence in our elections legislation domestically.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But that's still not Facebook.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I still need to see more from the social media companies. That's why I am engaging with them and making demands of them, and I will be completely transparent with Canadians about how those go. I would be happy to have further conversations with you on this, because I think it is of the utmost importance.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

I have a couple of comments for the minister, just before we close. The phrase that came to me before, when I saw the legislation, Bill C-76, was that we are bringing a knife to a gunfight. In reality, we're not even bringing a knife; we're bringing a panel to a gunfight.

The concern is around how, especially with some very clear recommendations in our report, 26 very clear recommendations that were very specific, we see very few of those being taken up by the minister. What has been talked about here in committee as a whole is that if expecting that social media platforms will act is your final point, isn't that supposed to make them treat it more seriously?

I'll just refer you to a quote from the Information Commissioner from the U.K., which was later reiterated by our own Privacy Commissioner. “I think the time for self-regulation is over,” Denham said. “That ship has sailed.” I guess I just wonder—and this is for the minister—why we still let them self-regulate and expect them to do the right thing when they haven't, up to this point.

I guess what I'm concerned about, what I think all at this committee are concerned about, is that, as has been mentioned before, we're in a Cold War—the Cold War reference was brought up—but we're in a digital reality and we're still treating it like a Cold War problem.

With those comments, do you think you're doing enough?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I would say that for many of the elements in both of your reports that have to do with elections, you can see those reflected, not entirely, but fairly closely, in both Bill C-76 and the announcement that we made with regard to protecting democracy.

On some of the other elements that are outside of my mandate, I will note that my colleague Minister Bains is conducting public consultations and will be coming out with a report specifically with regard to privacy and data and how companies use that. My understanding is that will be in the near term.

As I have said many times before, this is one of the great challenges we're facing right now. We have in many ways for a long time looked just at the tremendous benefits that social media and the digital world have brought us. I think 2016 was a real wake-up call for everyone around the world in terms of what was going on.

As in many moments in history, we now have to figure out exactly how to tackle this problem in a way that, on the one hand, continues to encourage the positive elements of social media—the ability for people to connect in ways they've never been able to connect before; the great democratizing abilities that it has in terms of sharing opinions and views, which I think is extraordinarily positive—and, on the other hand, mitigates the risks and the social harms that we see happening.

One of the things I have thought about over the past two years, the last year in particular, as a lot more of this stuff has come to light, is the fact that there have been very few times when we've had one industry that is so encompassing in so many aspects of our lives that it's difficult to attack it from just one position, whether it's democracy, privacy, public safety, law enforcement or whatever the case may be. We need to start thinking a bit more holistically about these digital giants and how we approach them.

That's where I think the work of your committee has been very helpful in terms of helping us think about some of these issues and how we manage them in a way that aligns with our values and our societal norms moving forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll suspend for just a few minutes while you make your exit, Minister, and then we'll have the other presenters in the last hour.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Thank you for having me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

We'll suspend.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

I will call the meeting back to order.

First, we have a point of order from Mr. Angus.