Information & Ethics Committee on April 4th, 2019

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

We're out of time. We just crossed the line.

We have three questioners left. We have Mr. Angus for three minutes, and Mr. Fortier and Mr. Baylis after that. That's all I have on my slate as of now.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Canadians have enormous respect for Statistics Canada, but when Statistics Canada decided to share financial data to get better information, there was a huge blowback, which suggests Canadians are very particular about this kind of integration of financial information with government.

Where do you stand on that? Are you sensitive to the fact that people don't want that kind of deep integration between their personal financial information and government, even if it's anonymized?

[Angelina Mason]

Yes, we are very sensitized to it. I would note, first of all, that when Statistics Canada moved to compel the banks, we were not aware that was happening. When it did take place, we obviously had serious concerns.

First of all, I want to clarify that no personal financial transaction data has been provided to Statistics Canada. We were very concerned about the protection of the privacy and security of our customers' information, and obviously, very encouraged to see the Privacy Commissioner conducting an investigation in that regard.

There is a sensitivity, for sure, about that level of data. The banking industry has had a long relationship with Statistics Canada, providing them with information that's helpful, but it's always been at an aggregated level, such as mortgage default rates. We had significant concerns with the nature of the request. We thought our discussions were at the exploratory stage, where we were raising all of these flags, and we were obviously very surprised that it went the way it did.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you. It's actually very reassuring to hear that, because we certainly heard from many citizens who were deeply concerned.

I just want to end with what I began the conversation on, which was the issue of fraud. We've been studying here the danger and the power of AI, which is going to start to transform all manner of online life. There are deep fakes, and the ability to target better and better by getting more and more personal information, which is why breaches of personal information are so dangerous in this age.

I'm interested in training. If you're at a bank and someone makes a lot of inappropriate transactions because they have a gambling addiction, that's not necessarily illegal, but someone else may come in and want to make all kinds of withdrawals in order to pay for someone who doesn't exist who's running a criminal gang in eastern Europe, because they're being suckered. Someone may have a deep fake video that's saying they need this money, but they're in Europe.

There are all manner of new elements that we haven't dealt with before. In terms of training your staff, because it's your front line that's going to deal with a lot of this, how is that being done? Are tellers being trained? Are you monitoring at the teller gate?

[Angelina Mason]

Yes, there's a meeting of bank personnel to identify what we call the flags, where something is unusual. There are also electronic triggers. When you see unusual transactions within an account, they will be pulled out. It's both by human factor and electronic monitoring.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

The last person up today is Ms. Fortier.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My apologies for being late. Something unexpected came up in my riding.

Ladies, I missed your presentations unfortunately, so I've based my two questions on the notes you provided. I hope I don't make you repeat anything you've already said.

Ms. Shea, my questions are for you.

However, should Ms. Mason and Ms. Mandal wish to comment, please do so.

Ms. Shea, in your presentation, you indicated that “as the government considers its approach to rendering services to Canadians,” you would urge it to adopt “a data stewardship model.” Could you list two or three advantages of such a model for the government, as well as the risks involved?

[Della Shea]

Are you referring to the risks of adopting a consistent approach?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Yes. Does the approach pose any risks?

[Della Shea]

Just so I understand, was the question about implementing systems and what are the risks?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

This says that you want to adopt a model of management of data. Are there risks that we should be taking into account if we choose to adopt that type of model?

[Della Shea]

That's a good question. I can't think of any risks in terms of adopting a model around sound data governance and sound data management. I believe that by having these controls and these methodologies and processes, you're really setting the government up for a win-win scenario.

As Mr. Angus discussed, around the issue with Statistics Canada, that's an example in terms of where the potential legitimate purpose of processing was not considered. A lot of issues potentially could have been handled better by having, first and foremost, a legitimate purpose and having purposeful and reasonable requests for information, and then having a sound governance process to ensure that, again, for whatever is stated is going to be the use, you have the consistency and you actually act on that.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I will now ask my second question. Given your experience with Symcor's transition from print to digital and the expertise you gained, what should a change management strategy take into account as we move towards digital government services?

[Della Shea]

Thank you for that question. It is actually an excellent question, as the importance of change management should not be underestimated as you go from having a traditional service to a digital service. You fundamentally are introducing many new things to an existing set of stakeholders who aren't necessarily aware of how these technologies work, why they should use them and how it is going to impact their lives.

Understanding this up front and having a change management program and mandate to ensure that you engage all the stakeholders within your enterprise, or, in this case, government services, and to ensure appropriate training and awareness are going to become very critical. Also, that training and awareness have to be constantly reiterated, and at a level that's very basic, for everyone to understand.

It's also important to recognize that the speed of adoption is not going to be consistent. There are going to be early adopters and there are going to be laggards, and having a mechanism to bring everyone along that journey is going to be critical.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Ms. Mason or Ms. Mandal, do you have anything to add on change management?

[Marina Mandal]

I think the CBA agrees with the thoughts that Ms. Shea has laid out.

We do a lot of work within our association on financial literacy. Arguably, there's some need for similar education on data and digital literacy, just so Canadians understand what is happening when they're handing over information, whether it's personal financial information or health information, etc.

The literacy component—and Ms. Shea spoke to this with her references to training and awareness—I think is really crucial. We just keep going back to how innovations will not be adopted if they do not gain the trust of Canadians. I would just confirm agreement.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Thank you, Ms. Fortier.

Mr. Erskine-Smith.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I had given notice of this on Tuesday. While we still have time here, I want to move a motion to invite senior representatives of YouTube to explain the company's decision not to run political ads in the upcoming federal election and their refusal to comply with Bill C-76.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Is there any discussion?

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think it's an excellent motion. I'm interested in having YouTube here on a number of issues. I'm wondering if we can have it say “and issues relating to YouTube” so that we're not strictly—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm fine with that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

There may be other issues that we may want to ask about.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Do you have an amended motion or do you want to work that into your initial one?