Evidence of meeting #150 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mario Dion  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Nancy Bélanger  Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

We'll call the meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, meeting 150.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), we are considering the main estimates 2019-20, vote 1 under Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying, vote 1 under the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, vote 1 under the Office of the Senate Ethics Officer and votes 1, 5, 10 and 15 under the Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada, referred to the committee on Thursday, April 11, 2019.

With us today we have, from the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Mr. Mario Dion. With the commissioner, we have Sandy Tremblay, director of corporate management.

In the second hour, we're going to have the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying. With us will be Nancy Bélanger, Commissioner of Lobbying, and Charles Dutrisac, director of finance and chief financial officer.

Mr. Dion, it's good to see you. You have 10 minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Mario Dion Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Chair and honourable members of the Committee, first of all I would like to thank you for inviting me to appear before you today as the Committee considers my Office's budgetary submission for the 2019-2020 Main Estimates.

As the Chair said, with me is Sandy Tremblay, our Director of Corporate Management.

As you know, the purpose of my appearance today is to discuss the current budgetary requirements of the Office. For context, I will begin by reviewing some of the projects and activities we undertook last year, as well as some of the activities planned for this fiscal year.

I will start with our mission, because it is key; it is the basis of everything we do. The Office established a mission a little more than a year ago, and it describes what we do.

Our Office provides independent, rigorous and consistent direction and advice to Members of Parliament and federal public office holders. That is the first thing. Second, it conducts investigations. And third, where necessary, it makes use of appropriate sanctions in order to ensure full compliance with the Conflict of lnterest Code for Members of the House of Commons and the Conflict of Interest Act.

Last year, we implemented a rolling three-year strategic plan to guide our projects and activities in support of our mission. It identified three key priorities, those being to improve communications and outreach, to modernize technology and information management structures, and to maintain operational excellence. It also identified how we would achieve them.

One key priority is to build and improve communications and outreach processes to help Members and public office holders understand and meet their obligations under the Code and the Act.

Education and outreach have been a key focus of my approach as Commissioner for a year and a half now. We strive to ensure that Members and public office holders are fully aware of their obligations. As for the methods used to do that, I intend to go beyond the traditional classroom approach and instead leverage new media technology for presentations and other educational uses.

We looked at all of the educational materials that our Office has issued over the past 12 years, in fact since it was established, to explain how the rules of the Code and the Act apply. The goal was to simplify that material and make it a more effective source of information for Members and public office holders.

Last year, we revised and updated 12 of those documents, condensing their content into seven new information notices that explain various requirements of the Act. This year, we will focus on modernizing and simplifying the instruments that relate to the code governing the conduct of members.

Our new educational tools included two webinars about gifts that I hosted with my colleague the Lobbying Commissioner, who will be appearing immediately after me. We adopted a more proactive approach with our use of Twitter to communicate directly with Members and public office holders. We also produced a few short videos to provide additional channels to reach our stakeholders.

That was it on the communications and outreach side of things.

A second priority in our strategic plan was to modernize technology and information management structures. Last November we launched a new version of our case management system. All the information from our old system was migrated to the new one. Our upgraded information technology infrastructure is compatible with existing systems and allows the office to explore new technology options for delivering our mandate. We are still dealing with technical and procedural issues but I am confident that they will be resolved by the end of this fiscal year.

We're also presently working on the development of a new website that will make it a more effective source of information for members of Parliament and public office holders. It will be mobile-friendly, which is not the case now, so that it better reaches our busy stakeholders on the device platforms available today. We're planning to launch our new website before the October 2019 election.

Our third key priority identified in our strategic plan is to maintain operational excellence with a focus on our people and on the tools we have at our disposal. In my first year I took steps to ensure that our office invested in employee training and professional development, and provided the tools and equipment employees needed to perform their jobs. I also acted to ensure that we offered a respectful, diverse and inclusive workplace.

I was asked last year whether I'd be making recommendations in my annual reports to strengthen the regimes that we administer. At this time last year, with only a few months of experience, I did not feel ready to do so in the annual reports. I did express the hope last year that the committee would invite me to present my thoughts on possible amendments last fall. Otherwise, I would include something in this year's annual reports.

Indeed that is what we'll do shortly. Next month, June, the office will be tabling its two annual reports: one under the act and one under the code. We have drafted some potential amendments that would strengthen the operation of the act in the event that there is another review of the legislation, and we will include some of those key points in our annual report under the act.

Our strategic plan also provides my organization with a guiding document. It's used to align our priorities as we deliver on our mission to provide independent, rigorous and consistent direction and advice, and I will report on our achievements under the strategic plan in future annual reports to Parliament.

Investigations continues to be an area where there is a lot of interest on the part of the public and parliamentarians. We've been very active in relation to investigations. In 2018-19, we issued eight investigation reports: five under the act and three under the code. There are currently four matters that I have yet to report on, and our investigation team must balance confidentiality, integrity and procedural fairness with work that is very complex and time sensitive.

Our Office conducts its operations in support of its mission with a total of 49 full-time positions. The Advisory and Compliance Division accounts for over one-third of our staff resources. This total is reflective of their daily interactions with those individuals-over 3,000 who fall under the Act or Code. Those interactions form the majority of the work the Office undertakes in compliance, accounting for over 2,000 calls or inquiries last year.

The remainder of the Office falls into three broad categories: corporate services, which Ms. Tremblay directs, communications, directed by Ms. Rushworth, and investigations and legal services. A daily demonstration of rigour, professionalism and guidance on compliance matters is what we are aiming for.

I have complete confidence in the quality of work and the integrity of all members of my senior management team and indeed in all the Office staff.

Unless there are unexpected increases in the demands on our resources, I expect our office will be able to implement its mission in this upcoming fiscal year with a budget of $7.1 million. It represents a slight increase of 4% from the last fiscal year. The base budget has been unchanged in the 12 years of existence of the office. This is the first actual increase of 4%, and it's needed this year to enable our office to prepare for the election while continuing to ensure operational excellence.

There has traditionally been a significant increase in the workload whenever there is a general election, and we wanted to be ready and to prepare for it. Election readiness is a key focus of our activity already at this point in time. We've started to hire term employees to help with the increased workload. We're also updating letters and information kits for, potentially, new members of Parliament, for people who, in the future, will be joining offices, ministerial offices, and so on and so forth. All of these elements flow from our strategic plan and will enable the office to better serve its stakeholders in a busy election year.

As part of this planning we always have a reserve. We have $100,000 that we do not allocate in order to face, in a nimble way, important changes and what the needs would be.

I am confident that we'll be able, with this budget that is before you, to operate efficiently, effectively and also economically in carrying out our mission.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement. I'll now be happy to discuss any questions the committee may have. Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thank you, Commissioner.

Just for the sake of the committee, too, we did have an amended agenda. The agenda before you is incorrect. We're going until 4:15 p.m. It gives us enough time. I'm going to try to get us through the first four questioners—Ms. Fortier, Mr. Kent, Mr. Cullen and Mr. Erskine-Smith—and then we'll move to the next commissioner. That's all the time we have. Just to clarify again, the agenda is amended. It will take us to about 4:20 p.m., or so. Thanks.

Go ahead, Madam Fortier.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dion and Ms. Tremblay, thank you for being here today.

We know you work very hard. You had a chance to prepare a presentation, and I would like to ask you a few questions about the challenges your office is facing. I understand the strategic planning and your priorities. Would you please tell us about your current challenges and the steps you're taking to address them?

3:55 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

We're still facing a challenge associated with timelines, as I mentioned earlier. By that I mean we are required provide our services on a timely basis. We have service standards regarding the first contact we make, and that always creates pressure.

We also have service standards for responding to media representatives and members of the public who communicate with us. We are always under pressure, even if no service standards or timeframes are prescribed by the act when we investigate a matter. We're always under pressure to do things punctually, promptly, so that our report is relevant when it becomes available. That's one of our challenges, but we always have to operate with a sense that things have to move, and move quickly.

It has to be done in a consistent manner: we have to provide similar answers from one case to the next where the facts are the same. I think members and public office holders appreciate a bit of predictability. So we need to have tools to ensure that the advice we give is consistent.

We also have to have a professional team. By that I mean that the workplace must be stimulating. The only resource we have is the workers, the professionals who provide our services. We want to retain them because the learning curve is quite steep. Things must be done rigorously. Consistency and rigour aren't entirely the same thing. We try to be rigorous in everything we do.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

If my understanding is correct, you're currently managing all that pressure, and nothing will prevent you from carrying out your mandate.

3:55 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

That's been true to date, except where our workload has increased and become unmanageable. In the current state of affairs, however, we're dealing with all the aspects I mentioned without too much difficulty. It works.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Since I'm sharing my speaking time with my colleague, I'm going to ask you one final question.

At the end of your presentation, you mentioned that there will be an election soon. We're all aware it's coming. What impact is that having on your workload? Is it happening in the short term? Could you tell us about your election-related workload?

3:55 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

It will really start happening after October 21, depending on the election results. There will necessarily be new members. How many? No one knows. We'll have to contact the new members within three days of confirmation of their election. That adds to our workload.

We'll also have to do some outreach work with the people who've been elected for the first time and who don't know much about the Conflict of Interest Code for Members. We'll have to familiarize them with the code.

As I said earlier, if changes are ever made to the composition of the cabinet, or another party forms the next government, there will potentially be hundreds of new employees in the ministers' offices, and they'll also be public office holders within the meaning of the act.

That's what our workload consists of. We're preparing to deal with hundreds of people who'll be newly subject to the act on the morning of October 22.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you.

I'm going to give the rest of my speaking time to my colleague Mr. Saini.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Good afternoon, Mr. Dion and Ms. Tremblay. I have a question for you.

I read with great interest that last month you signed a memorandum of understanding with the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying to do education and outreach, which I think is an excellent idea. I think that by combining this activity, the more outreach and education you do, especially for MPs, the more dramatically you will reduce the questions and some of the investigations that you may undertake.

Is there an efficiency subset to this process? The more you educate and the more outreach you're doing, the more you should see the number of questions and cases drop.

4 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

There is. In the long term, I am convinced that this will produce a better adherence to the code and the act. Therefore, it will produce less work for us in terms of having to order things or investigate things, but it's not our objective. I think the objective is based on the desire to make sure that we put into the hands of the people who are governed by the code and the act the necessary knowledge so that they can actually ensure that they abide by these things on an ongoing basis. That's the goal.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Have you developed any programs so far with the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying?

4 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

Yes. We did a webinar, one in French and one in English, a few months ago. About 130 people attended the webinars. We were focusing on the area of overlap between the Lobbying Act, the Conflict of Interest Act and the code for members of the House of Commons.

We were happy with the registration, and we intend to repeat the experience in the coming year.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Now that you've developed these programs, do you think that the collaboration between your office and the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying will result in more enhanced information and more enhanced tools for new MPs after the next election?

4 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

I am convinced. It's only a question of the degree, but we will have a much better...both qualitatively and in terms of the supports that we'll be using. We'll use technology. We'll communicate in a way that's consistent with the 21st century and not only with words on paper, with legalese on paper. We're trying to move to plain language and real-time access, 24-7, wherever you may be on the planet.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

I noticed that in your strategic plan for 2018 to 2021, the second point is to modernize technology and information management structures.

Are you talking about just upgrading the technology from one generation to the next generation, or are you talking about a wholesale change in the software and the technology itself?

4 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

We're talking about upgrading, essentially, at this point, vis-à-vis the case management system, but we are slowly starting to explore other possibilities, for instance, using AI in terms of carrying out our mandate.

We have a wealth of information. We do not essentially use the information to the maximum extent that we could use it in order to prevent or identify potential conflicts of interest. We're trying to inform ourselves about AI and whether it could be put to use in future years in any way to carry out our mission. That's an example of an additional technological measure that we're looking at.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thank you, Mr. Saini.

Up next for seven minutes is Mr. Kent.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, and Ms. Tremblay, for appearing before committee today.

Commissioner, it's good to have you with us again. I hope your health issues have been resolved.

I'd like to ask questions starting with the four matters that are still currently under investigation.

When you began the investigation into the allegations that Prime Minister Trudeau or staff in his office unduly pressured the former attorney general, Jody Wilson-Raybould, to intervene in a criminal prosecution of the Quebec company SNC-Lavalin, you said you believed that the grounds for the investigation would be a possible violation of section 9.

In carrying out that investigation—I know you haven't reported yet, and we must be discreet in our questions—was there more than one member or office holder involved?

4:05 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

Of course, as the member has pointed out, I am quite limited in what I can share with the committee, or anyone else for that matter, in relation to an ongoing investigation. When we launched it on our own volition under section 45 of the act back in February, the focus was on the Prime Minister, but the member is right that there are several other public officer holders who are being interviewed, or will be interviewed, to essentially review the facts that were largely reported in the public domain. Political aides who allegedly also played a role have been or will be interviewed too.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

The former clerk of the Privy Council said, and this was some months ago now, and this is a quote, “I think the Ethics Commissioner could get to the bottom of this fairly quickly.”

Will you be able to advise the committee as to whether you will be able to report before the House rises in June?

4:05 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

In fact, I can inform the committee this afternoon that there will not be a report by mid-June. I expect the House to rise in mid-June or in the third week of June, and we will not have a report. I can assure you of that.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON

What about before October 21?